On 21/05/2019 11:26, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00
on Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.

Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?Â* As the service of matching
user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of product then
it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.Â* (I'm not a VAT
expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it will
be liable to the tax if any of it is.

On 21/05/2019 12:48, JNugent wrote:
On 21/05/2019 11:26, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00
on Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base
itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.

Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?Â* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.Â* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are
basing it off).

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it will
be liable to the tax if any of it is.


VAT was never my specialist subject but there are various
misunderstandings of the basics of how it works with intra-EU
transnational business to business supplies. Uber set out quite clearly
how they operate he

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/tax-information/

Note especially the reference to the fact that it's an Uber company in
the Netherlands that supplies the service and to the "reverse charge"
scheme.

All this is contentious. But the UK's not the only EU country that's
accepted it. As have others fiscs. See eg

https://library.croneri.co.uk/acmag_185098

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In message , at 12:48:07 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.
Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it
will be liable to the tax if any of it is.

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:48:07 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.
Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?Â* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.Â* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it
will be liable to the tax if any of it is.

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service. Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or
just provide a booking service for them?

In message , at 14:29:00 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service.

I don't think the passengers get an itemised bill breaking out those two
components.

Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or just provide a booking
service for them?

That's famously something being looked a very closely for employment law
reasons.

The question which then arises is "if they are employees, is the
passenger's bill entirely from Uber, and if so where's the VAT, given
Uber itself turns over more than £85k per annum".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:29:00 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service.

I don't think the passengers get an itemised bill breaking out those two
components.

Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or just provide a booking
service for them?

That's famously something being looked a very closely for employment law
reasons.

The question which then arises is "if they are employees, is the
passenger's bill entirely from Uber, and if so where's the VAT, given
Uber itself turns over more than £85k per annum".

Exactly. And that's why Uber may have a billion pound back tax bill.

On 21/05/2019 16:42, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:29:00 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service.

I don't think the passengers get an itemised bill breaking out those two
components.

Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or just provide a booking
service for them?

That's famously something being looked a very closely for employment law
reasons.

The question which then arises is "if they are employees, is the
passenger's bill entirely from Uber, and if so where's the VAT, given
Uber itself turns over more than £85k per annum".

Exactly. And that's why Uber may have a billion pound back tax bill.

Quite right too.

They can't have it both ways, having the exclusive billing contract with
the customer *and* not turning over £85,000 pa.

In message , at 15:42:17 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:29:00 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service.

I don't think the passengers get an itemised bill breaking out those two
components.

Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or just provide a booking
service for them?

That's famously something being looked a very closely for employment law
reasons.

The question which then arises is "if they are employees, is the
passenger's bill entirely from Uber, and if so where's the VAT, given
Uber itself turns over more than £85k per annum".

Exactly. And that's why Uber may have a billion pound back tax bill.

Potentially?
--
Roland Perry

On 21/05/2019 13:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:48:07 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base
itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.
Â*Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?Â* As the service of
matchingÂ* user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product thenÂ* it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.Â* (I'm
not a VATÂ* expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are
basing it off).

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it
will be liable to the tax if any of it is.

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

That's taxi-driving for you.

With Uber, the charge is not paid to the driver (and the drivers are not
taxi-drivers just as the cars are not taxis). The rider's sole contract
is with Uber itself. And they turn over more than £85,000 pa.

In message , at 17:00:44 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:

With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK),
the charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges
in the UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the
charge. How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but
all of it will be liable to the tax if any of it is.

The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.

That's taxi-driving for you.

With Uber, the charge is not paid to the driver (and the drivers are
not taxi-drivers just as the cars are not taxis). The rider's sole
contract is with Uber itself.

Unless Uber is an agency and you are booking with the successfully
bidding driver, and as part of the agency agreement Uber pass your money
to them. Separately charging the driver a commission.

And they turn over more than £85,000 pa.

Yes, that's one of the main ingredients.
--
Roland Perry