On 28/05/2019 15:08, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:53:38 on Sun, 26
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
On 26/05/2019 18:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:56:16 on Sat, 25
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
On 24/05/2019 21:11, Roland Perry wrote:

JNugent remarked:

How Uber allocates their turnover is not relevant to the question
ofÂ* what their turnover is.
Â*It is if the main way they "allocate" the funds is by sending 75%
toÂ* theÂ* drivers (on a booking agency basis) and keeping 25%
commission.

How?

They are still turning the money over, no matter how it is sliced up
after receipt.

It goes through their bank account. It is all part of the turnover.
That's what turnover *means*. They could pay the drivers 99% of the
turnover, but it's still turnover.
Â*If you look at a company like TheTrainline, the turnover they quote
isÂ* just the commission from the Train Operators (and some fixed
transactionÂ* fees from customers) [in the region of £150 million],
not the total ofÂ* all the fares people buy [in the region of £2
billion].

If it were otherwise, any small enterprise on the verge of the
compulsory VAT registration turnover quantum could, by sleight of
hand, deduct the amounts they are liable to pay out for wages
(that's the biggy), business rates, fuel duties and VAT, national
insurance, etc, and claim not to be turning over enough to be forced
to register.
Â*You are fatally confusing gross profit margin with turnover.

That is exactly what I am not doing.

Turnover is turnover. Profit, whether gross or net, is something other
than turnover and somewhat less in size.

Profit is not the deciding factor when it comes to VAT registration.
Only turnover counts.

The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commission
element, not including the money that passes straight through to the
drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that
would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder)
on the spot?

Any business which pays out more than it previously did in wages
orÂ* overheads reduces profitability, but turnover only vchanges if
turnover changes.

Â*The only overhead that the Uber that's paying 75% to drivers (and
theÂ* drivers paying all their costs like renting and insuring
vehicles,Â* paying themselves a wage etc) has, is running its booking

The amount of their overheads isn't important. The principle *is*.
If they want to avoid VAT liability on turnover, they need to let
theÂ* drivers collect the fares (like a real private hire operation)
andÂ* avoid making it part of their revenue.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of things
purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do collect the
money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount out
andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back whenever the
traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.

That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and channel
it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's money
from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

Does that apply to Uber?

They pay out money *for* me,

Just like Uber pays money *for* the passengers, to the drivers (well,
that's the accounting model we are exploring).

but really, it's about as bad an analogy as you could have chosen. The
relationship structure is completely different from that of Uber. In
order to get it to look similar, you'd have to posit the credit card
issuer getting my income paid into their bank account instead of mine
and then letting me have some, but not all, of it.

I's not about the flow at your end, but at the driver's end.

Yes, the card issuer pays money it has derived from you, into the
merchant's bank account, while deducting a small commission (my
financial model here is that they don't pay it all up front, and then
expect the merchant to pay them back the commission later).

In message , at 02:31:31 on Wed, 29
May 2019, JNugent remarked:

The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commission element, not including the money that passes straight
through to the drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that
would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
things purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect the money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
out and* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever the trader* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channel it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
money from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

--
Roland Perry

On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the
balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channelÂ* it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

JNugent wrote:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the
balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channelÂ* it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

On 2019-05-30, Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.


https://thevatconsultancy.com/med-ho...supreme-court/

Went all the way to the supreme court - and was reversed at each stage!

Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Which would confirm Uber's interpretation, meaning that it doesn't need to
pay VAT, or if it does, only on its net amount, around 22% of the gross
billings.

Uber certainly books and reports 'Gross billings' and 'Revenue', where the
latter is its net take after paying the drivers.

In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its
overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is
only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:24:24 on Fri, 31 May 2019,
Roland Perry remarked:
In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...-agent-the-deb
ate-over-online-travel-agents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply

simply

one of its overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover
is only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.


--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its
overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is
only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.


And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rival-app-kapten-aims-to-drive-uber-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d61cbc54da17360bf58 ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.