Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare

toll

out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at
airports?
--
Roland Perry

On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when
empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to
return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at airports?

For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the
passenger(s) so they should get it repaid.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message , at 10:04:48 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Graeme Wall remarked:
On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/


https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...-get-paid-and-
how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when
empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to
return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.
How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at
airports?

For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the
passenger(s) so they should get it repaid.

If they drop off and collect at the same time (within a window for which
there's a non-excruciating parking fee), do both passengers pay the
whole amount, each pay half, etc etc.

Given that Uber is supposed to quote a charge before you start the trip,
would they only be able to levy the absolute minimum fee on each
individual pax (rather than what it cost the driver)?
--
Roland Perry

On 31/05/2019 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:04:48 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Graeme Wall remarked:
On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/


https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...-get-paid-and-
how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays
drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when
empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is
added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to
return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So
that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.
Â*How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at
airports?

For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the
passenger(s) so they should get it repaid.

If they drop off and collect at the same time (within a window for which
there's a non-excruciating parking fee), do both passengers pay the
whole amount, each pay half, etc etc.

Given that Uber is supposed to quote a charge before you start the trip,
would they only be able to levy the absolute minimum fee on each
individual pax (rather than what it cost the driver)?

Probably

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 30/05/2019 17:01, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

....and?

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the
balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channelÂ* it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

On 30/05/2019 17:26, Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

"If".

On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on
the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey.

So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity.

In message , at 00:26:56 on Sat, 1 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked:
On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...vers-get-paid-
and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.
One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays
drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on
the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey.

So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity.

Following up on a question I asked earlier, I see that the biggest firm
in my locality has as T&C:

All fares are quoted in Pounds (£) Sterling GBP. The pick up
fare includes initial 30 minutes waiting time, car parking fees,
motorway toll fees and any congestion charges.

But then kind of contradicts itself (drop-off fees are really a parking
charge for the drop-off area, being metered by time) with:

Stansted Airport and London Luton Airport have introduced a drop
off fee to drivers on exiting the airport drop off area, this
fee is currently set at £3.50[1] for Stansted and £3.00 for
Luton. This is an addition(sic) charge to the listed pricing.

The pick-up area at Stansted is a bus-ride away from the terminal
building, which is a bit inconvenient if you've ordered a taxi. Luton
airport describes its premium facility as both pick-up and drop-off.
Birmingham airport (like Stansted) as only drop-off, but I've been
picked up there by taxis.

[1] According to the airport it's £4 for the first 10 minutes, then
£1/minute.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its
overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is
only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.


And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rival-app-kapten-aims-to-drive-uber-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d61cbc54da17360bf58 ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.