On 03/08/2020 01:03, Recliner wrote:

But, as far as Thamesmead is concerned, I think it would be much better
served by a tram route to Abbey Wood. That would provide much more capacity
and speed into central London, both via the classic route into London
Bridge and Crossrail.

I never understood why the justification for bringing Crossrail to Abbey
Wood was to serve Thamesmead, when Crossrail could have skipped Woolwich
and gone to Thamesmead before joining the North Kent line at Belvedere.
And now they're talking about extending the DLR because they've suddenly
noticed that Crossrail at Abbey Wood doesn't serve Thamesmead.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Girls At Our Best! - 1980 - Getting Nowhere Fast

On 2020-08-02 21:17:18 +0000, Graeme Wall said:

On 02/08/2020 17:35, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 02/08/2020 17:11, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:15:53 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:


This consultation dates from 2020 BC (Before Covid) so I'm not sure if
this project is even alive now. There's a map at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/202...smead-advance/


I'm mystified by the plan. Would the trains reverse at Beckton to get
there? Or would Beckton have its own service and Thamesmead have its own
service? Extending from Woolwich seems to make more sense - or reversing
at Woolwich, since the trains actually curve around under the river to
come into Woolwich from the east. This would give people in Thamesmead
direct service to Woolwich and City Airport, whereas plugging them into
the Beckton Branch doesn't really give them much. It would also remove
the extra Thames Tunnel from the plan, so should work out cheaper.

What other alternatives are there?

Extend Barking Riverside under the river?
Take Crossrail into Thamesmead?

Wasn't the original version (Fleet Line) of the Jubilee line supposed to
have gone to Thamesmead in the first place.

Yes, but that was before Canary Wharf subsidised the diversion, and the
Olympics.


The rerouting was long before the Olympics were a consideration.

While the Olympics were the vehicle by which the redevelopment
happened, at the time the JLE was in planning, it was clear that
redevelopment in some format would take place, and providing better
transport links was intended to facilitate this (along with the white
elephant international station at Stratford).

Robin

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 00:03:09 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well for a start the transverse seating in DLR trains severly retricts the
number of standees compared to a jubilee train and secondly the DLR trains
trundle along at a slow to moderate speed, there are far too many stops
and too many branches all cramming their trains into the central sections.

The only 'central section' through Poplar is 4-track. But not every DLR
route goes that way. It's not a core route with branches, but a genuine
network.

I said sections, plural. But Bank is the main one and when I last used it
it had trains heading off the Woolwich - presumably for the airport - which
were virtually empty and the ones to canary wharf which were rammed. Plus
the occasional train to and from tower gateway.

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:01:53 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 00:03:09 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well for a start the transverse seating in DLR trains severly retricts the
number of standees compared to a jubilee train and secondly the DLR trains
trundle along at a slow to moderate speed, there are far too many stops
and too many branches all cramming their trains into the central sections.

The only 'central section' through Poplar is 4-track. But not every DLR
route goes that way. It's not a core route with branches, but a genuine
network.

I said sections, plural. But Bank is the main one and when I last used it
it had trains heading off the Woolwich - presumably for the airport - which
were virtually empty and the ones to canary wharf which were rammed. Plus
the occasional train to and from tower gateway.


People coming from any years-in-the-future DLR Thamesmead branch will
have the opportunity to change to Crossrail at Custom House. That will
get them into Canary Wharf or the City much faster than staying on the
DLR all the way. So they mostly won't be using the Bank branch of the
DLR.

On Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:03:39 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:01:53 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 00:03:09 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well for a start the transverse seating in DLR trains severly retricts the
number of standees compared to a jubilee train and secondly the DLR trains
trundle along at a slow to moderate speed, there are far too many stops
and too many branches all cramming their trains into the central sections.

The only 'central section' through Poplar is 4-track. But not every DLR
route goes that way. It's not a core route with branches, but a genuine
network.

I said sections, plural. But Bank is the main one and when I last used it
it had trains heading off the Woolwich - presumably for the airport - which
were virtually empty and the ones to canary wharf which were rammed. Plus
the occasional train to and from tower gateway.


People coming from any years-in-the-future DLR Thamesmead branch will
have the opportunity to change to Crossrail at Custom House. That will
get them into Canary Wharf or the City much faster than staying on the
DLR all the way. So they mostly won't be using the Bank branch of the
DLR.

Quite possibly, however that doesn't change the fact that the DLR is the
tubes poor relation and adding yet another branch to it would be a disaster.

wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:03:39 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:01:53 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 00:03:09 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well for a start the transverse seating in DLR trains severly retricts the
number of standees compared to a jubilee train and secondly the DLR trains
trundle along at a slow to moderate speed, there are far too many stops
and too many branches all cramming their trains into the central sections.

The only 'central section' through Poplar is 4-track. But not every DLR
route goes that way. It's not a core route with branches, but a genuine
network.

I said sections, plural. But Bank is the main one and when I last used it
it had trains heading off the Woolwich - presumably for the airport - which
were virtually empty and the ones to canary wharf which were rammed. Plus
the occasional train to and from tower gateway.


People coming from any years-in-the-future DLR Thamesmead branch will
have the opportunity to change to Crossrail at Custom House. That will
get them into Canary Wharf or the City much faster than staying on the
DLR all the way. So they mostly won't be using the Bank branch of the
DLR.

Quite possibly, however that doesn't change the fact that the DLR is the
tubes poor relation and adding yet another branch to it would be a disaster.

It would not be a disaster, and I'm sure we'll see more DLR branches. But I
think there are better ways of serving a major new Thamesmead development,
particularly trams to Abbey Wood.

On 03/08/2020 16:00, wrote:

Quite possibly, however that doesn't change the fact that the DLR is the
tubes poor relation and adding yet another branch to it would be a disaster.

I don't see how you can say that. There are parts of the tube where an
extra branch would be great, there are parts where it would not. The
same is true of the DLR. It's just a network of lines, like the tube.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Faith No More - 1989 - The Real Thing

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:26:36 +0100
Basil Jet wrote:
On 03/08/2020 16:00, wrote:

Quite possibly, however that doesn't change the fact that the DLR is the
tubes poor relation and adding yet another branch to it would be a disaster.

I don't see how you can say that. There are parts of the tube where an
extra branch would be great, there are parts where it would not. The
same is true of the DLR. It's just a network of lines, like the tube.

Well I suppose it depends where it connects, but if the trains run to Bank
which they'll need to to be any use it'll clog up an already clogged up route
(covid notwithstanding). If the DLR wanted to improve their service closing
west india quay and heron quay stations would be a good place to start. The
latter having precisely zero footfall even in the rush hour when I used the
service and the former not much more plus its only a 3 min walk from canary
wharf station anyway.

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 19:46:35 +0100, Graham Harrison
wrote:

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:35:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Graham Harrison wrote:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:28:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 01/08/2020 15:29, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 13:28:36 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 01/08/2020 08:31, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:15:53 +0100
Basil Jet wrote:
This consultation dates from 2020 BC (Before Covid) so I'm not sure if
this project is even alive now. There's a map at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/202...o-thamesmead-a
dvance/

I'm mystified by the plan. Would the trains reverse at Beckton to get
there? Or would Beckton have its own service and Thamesmead have its own
service? Extending from Woolwich seems to make more sense - or reversing
at Woolwich, since the trains actually curve around under the river to
come into Woolwich from the east. This would give people in Thamesmead
direct service to Woolwich and City Airport, whereas plugging them into
the Beckton Branch doesn't really give them much. It would also remove
the extra Thames Tunnel from the plan, so should work out cheaper.

IMO the DLR is already too big for what it is and couldn't cope with
the traffic flow even when I last commuted on it in 2014. Any further
transport enhancements in that area should involve the jubilee line.

Jubilee train = 875 passengers
DLR triple train = 852 passengers

I think the new CAF 5-car DLR trains will have a slightly greater
capacity than the current 3-car DLR fleet.


Or maybe you meant something else?

Also, the central section of the Jubilee line was already running at
max capacity. The last thing it needs is a branch to a new catchment
area.


Given you can interchange from DLR to Jubilee, that's not going to help
matters much.


Yes, but the DLR also interchanges with the Crossrail, GA and C2C main
lines as well as the District, H&C and Central lines. Those provide better
journey opportunities to most parts of central London than the crowded
Jubilee.

But a lot of that isn't at stations the Becton branch currently
serves. Not only that but Becton serves Tower Gateway so even where
interchanges do exist they aren't perfect.

I don't see any suggestion that the current service pattern would
change if a Thamesmead extension happened.

The Thamesmead branch woukd take years of planning and building. Recasting
the timetable takes months. Clearly a major new branch would change a lot.

You see, I read your previous post as extolling the virtues of all the
current interchanges which would be available to passengers on trains
from Becton today (much less Thamesmead).

Even with the current timetable, why wouldn't they simply change to
Crossrail at Custom House? That would provide a much faster route to
Canary Wharf, the City, the West End and Heathrow.

Don't some Beckton trains go to Stratford, with its many interchange
possibilities? That route provides interchanges to the District,
Hammersmith and Central lines, as well as the Jubilee at Canning Town.

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:49:13 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:26:36 +0100
Basil Jet wrote:
On 03/08/2020 16:00, wrote:

Quite possibly, however that doesn't change the fact that the DLR is the
tubes poor relation and adding yet another branch to it would be a disaster.

I don't see how you can say that. There are parts of the tube where an
extra branch would be great, there are parts where it would not. The
same is true of the DLR. It's just a network of lines, like the tube.

Well I suppose it depends where it connects, but if the trains run to Bank
which they'll need to to be any use it'll clog up an already clogged up route
(covid notwithstanding).

Why would future Thamesmead commuters take the DLR all the way to
Bank, even if there were direct trains?

If the DLR wanted to improve their service closing
west india quay and heron quay stations would be a good place to start. The
latter having precisely zero footfall even in the rush hour when I used the
service and the former not much more plus its only a 3 min walk from canary
wharf station anyway.