On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:16:28 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


We haven't got an integrated system, and, if they'd done any research
before they came, they would know that.

All the physical evidence is otherwise.


But its not - is it?

Surely most tourists won't have an Oyster card anyway?

This thread started because I was charged £2 for a single that was much
more than I was expecting (as a tourist). And the advice from the
newsgroup was "get an Oyster card then".

That doesn't alter the fact that most tourists don't have Oyster
cards.


Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?

Why should they?

So that fares are the same from A-B [eg Ealing Broadway to Paddington]
irrespective of which trains you get.

The trains are run by different companies. They can charge different
amounts - and do. Just because tfl decided to go for Oystercards
doesn't mean the TOCs should be forced to as well.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:40:48 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , Dave Liney
writes
Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?

You cannot impose conditions like that. The regulatory regime and
structure of agreements established as part of privatisation do not
allow for unilateral action by TfL.

Oyster post-dates most of the TOCs in the London area.

But most contracts have clauses allowing for changes to be imposed
later.

Sorry but no they do not. Not in respect of ticketing technology or
Travelcard which are covered by National Agreements or ATOC schemes.

I should know as I was involved in the early attempts to get the TOCs to
be even vaguely interested in what LT was doing at the time. Believe me
it was an easy task.

(In any event, does Oyster really post-date the change from Thames
Trains to GW Link?)

After all, they accept Oyster Travelcards, so what's the fundamental
difference?

The revenue allocation is the fundamental difference. There is no
obligation whatsoever for a TOC to accept TfL pricing on parallel routes
except in those cases where it has been established for many, many years
(e.g. LTS / District Line). If a TOC agrees to accept the LUL fare
regime then there will be compensatory payments made to the TOC because
prima facie they will earn less revenue than originally predicted under
their franchise. The balancing aspect is to assess how much additional
usage will arise from an effective cut in fares and the greater ease of
use of the rail system. This is obviously open for extensive debate
between the TOC, SRA and TfL.

Oyster Travelcards are the same price as paper travelcards just using a
different medium. Oyster single tickets are priced differently.

And someone has to fund the cost of 2003 fares levels and weekend caps.

And that's the *tourist's* problem? Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.

No of course it is not the tourist's problem - there should be adequate
information to make sure are aware of what ticket works where.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , k
writes
Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.

You mean it doesn't?

Not as far as I've seen so far. It's very lacking in information
altogether (like I've yet to find a timetable of all NR services to
London, outside the barriers). I'll have another look tomorrow.

My NR station (and several others I've been to)
have posters up saying just that.

--
Roland Perry

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
No of course it is not the tourist's problem - there should be adequate
information to make sure are aware of what ticket works where.

But this is what's missing. I've agreed to check Ealing Broadway station
tomorrow, and when I arrive at Paddington I'll have a look there as well
(and depending on whether or not I arrive on a platform *inside* the
underground barriers or not, try to find the Oyster validator - I'll be
arriving on a paper NR ticket and transferring to the H&C line).
--
Roland Perry

In message , k
writes

All the physical evidence is otherwise.

But its not - is it?

What physical evidence contradicts the impression that the NR and TFL
lines are integrated?

Surely most tourists won't have an Oyster card anyway?

This thread started because I was charged £2 for a single that was much
more than I was expecting (as a tourist). And the advice from the
newsgroup was "get an Oyster card then".

That doesn't alter the fact that most tourists don't have Oyster
cards.

In your opinion. Given the ludicrous price hike for paper tickets I
wouldn't be so sure.

So that fares are the same from A-B [eg Ealing Broadway to Paddington]
irrespective of which trains you get.

The trains are run by different companies.

I notice (as would some tourists) that London's Red Busses seem to be
operated by many different companies. So is it correct to assume that
they all charge different fares for identical routes?

And how is a tourist to know that the District and Central lines aren't
two different companies?

They can charge different amounts - and do.

Then they should have different routes/gates to get in and out of the
station.

Just because tfl decided to go for Oystercards
doesn't mean the TOCs should be forced to as well.

So why are they installed at Ealing Broadway - a NR-TOC operated
station?
--
Roland Perry

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Therefore if TfL want to apply their fares to SRA services, they have to
"pay the difference" - which can be very expensive,

However for the Ealing Broadway - Paddington fare TfL pricing is more
expensive for a return than rail pricing.

Oyster 2 x £2.30 = £4.60
NR standard day return = £4.20

And off-peak NR comes down to £2.70 whereas the Oyster price only falls at
weekends and even then to only £3.60.

Paper tickets at TfL prices would be £5 at all times.

There is a good reason why people don't want TfL to price everything within
London.

Dave

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:03:45 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Just because tfl decided to go for Oystercards
doesn't mean the TOCs should be forced to as well.

So why are they installed at Ealing Broadway - a NR-TOC operated
station?

It would be bonkers for there not to be a form of oyster card validation
at Ealing Broadway which is served by 2 Underground lines. Given the
high revenue base at Ealing Broadway it made sense for Thames Trains to
contribute to the cost [1] as they would derive business benefit from
the gates as would LUL in that the Prestige project / Oyster would work
more effectively.

There are a number of TOCs who have voluntarily installed gates because
they saw the success that LUL derived from them. I was personally
involved in persuading the directors from Prism that gates would make
sense on the LTS line. It is nice to see that they took my advice and
that National Express have not removed them. So in other words - blame
me for the onward march of ticket gates :-)

[1] that was certainly the intent when I left the project. Whether an
agreement was eventually reached I do not know.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Dave Liney
writes
However for the Ealing Broadway - Paddington fare TfL pricing is more
expensive for a return than rail pricing.

Oyster 2 x £2.30 = £4.60
NR standard day return = £4.20

And off-peak NR comes down to £2.70 whereas the Oyster price only falls at
weekends and even then to only £3.60.

Makes it even odder that you can't use the Oyster (tfl could pay NR the
whole fare and still trouser a profit).

Meanwhile, my Oyster continues to play up :-(

Tried using it at Paddington to get a H&C train (having arrived from EB
on a paper ticket). "Seek assistance". So I did. The glum chap in the
enquiry office there used a handheld reader and said it as because there
was only £1 left. I said I'd only done two trips so far and he gave the
ticket back saying there was now £12 on it. As I was in a hurry (story
of my life!) I went off.

But it started with £17, and I've done a Z1-Z1 and a Z1-Z3 trip, total
of 1.60 + 2.30 = 3.90 ; so why isn't there £14.10 left? Sounds like I
need to check this out again.

--
Roland Perry

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
It would be bonkers for there not to be a form of oyster card validation
at Ealing Broadway which is served by 2 Underground lines.

The validaters could be on the stairs and passageways to the underground
lines.

Given the high revenue base at Ealing Broadway

Where it seems they can only be bothered to have two or three ticket
windows open - hence huge queues.

it made sense for Thames Trains to contribute to the cost [1] as they
would derive business benefit from the gates as would LUL in that the
Prestige project / Oyster would work more effectively.

I can see the sense in sharing the cost of the barriers (when they might
not make sense for either LUL or Thames Trains alone). But this does
inevitably result in a counter-intuitive situation for the occasional
traveller. [And there are *no* signs.]
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:03:45 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


What physical evidence contradicts the impression that the NR and TFL
lines are integrated?

We're talking about integrated pricing.


In your opinion. Given the ludicrous price hike for paper tickets I
wouldn't be so sure.

But do you have any evidence?

So that fares are the same from A-B [eg Ealing Broadway to Paddington]
irrespective of which trains you get.

The trains are run by different companies.

I notice (as would some tourists) that London's Red Busses seem to be
operated by many different companies. So is it correct to assume that
they all charge different fares for identical routes?

No They show a LT roundel (or whatever its called)


And how is a tourist to know that the District and Central lines aren't
two different companies?


They are the London Underground as even the thickest of tourists can
tell :-)



They can charge different amounts - and do.

Then they should have different routes/gates to get in and out of the
station.

Why? Do different airlines have different routes into the airport?


Just because tfl decided to go for Oystercards
doesn't mean the TOCs should be forced to as well.

So why are they installed at Ealing Broadway - a NR-TOC operated
station?

They are for travelcards - as you well know. :-)