In message , Richard J.
writes

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's
motorways were generally designed for 70 mph,

There was no speed limit whatsoever for the first six years ... it was
not until 1965, after reports of test drivers reaching nearly 170mph on
the M1, that a 70mph limit was introduced on motorways.

but it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard.

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the motorway
when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister Ernest Marples'
construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just a flyover on the A4.

It didn't become the most easterly part of the M4 until six years later
when, by curious turn of fate, the rest of the elevated section was
completed by chief engineer Sandy Darling, father of Alistair Darling,
and became (with Westway) the symbol of the way in which roads had been
put before homes in the 1960s.

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:

Richard J. writes:

... it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard.

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the motorway
when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister Ernest Marples'
construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just a flyover on the
A4.

You must be thinking of a different stretch of road - perhaps the
Hammersmith Flyover (which *is* part of the A4).

It didn't become the most easterly part of the M4 until six years
later

I'm sure the Chiswick Flyover was built in the 1960s (along with what was
then the rest of the M4, as far as Maidenhead). It was originally going to
be designated A4(M) [1] - ie, the motorway was only going to be a bypass of
A4 from Chiswick to Maidenhead), but it was still a motorway.

[1] According to early 1960s street maps I have seen, with the motorway
shown only as "under construction" and designated A4(M).


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JNugent wrote:

I'm sure the Chiswick Flyover was built in the 1960s (along with
what was then the rest of the M4, as far as Maidenhead). It was
originally going to be designated A4(M) [1] - ie, the motorway was
only going to be a bypass of A4 from Chiswick to Maidenhead), but
it was still a motorway.

[1] According to early 1960s street maps I have seen, with the
motorway shown only as "under construction" and designated A4(M).

That's not quite right. The sequence of the various developments of the
A4 and M4 in West London is as follows:

- Before the 1950s, the A4 ran through Kensington (High Street),
Hammersmith (King Street) and Chiswick High Road, then down the Great
West Road.

- Between 1955 and 1957, the new A4 ("Cromwell Road Extension") was
rather brutally pushed through West London by widening existing roads or
creating new ones, linking to the Great West Road at the Chiswick
Roundabout.

- In 1959, three flyovers were constructed on this route: Hammersmith,
Hogarth (for A316 traffic, "temporary" but still there!), and Chiswick.

- In the early 1960s, the Maidenhead and Slough bypasses were built. I
thought they were always M4, but perhaps one or both were A4(M) for a
time. Certainly from about 1963 onwards, the M4 was planned as a
London-South Wales route.

- In 1964, the Langley (j.5) to Chiswick section of the M4 was opened,
including the elevated section. The western end of the Chiswick Flyover
was reconstructed to link to the elevated section of the M4 instead of
coming down on to the Great West Road.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes
- In the early 1960s, the Maidenhead and Slough bypasses were built. I
thought they were always M4, but perhaps one or both were A4(M) for a
time. Certainly from about 1963 onwards, the M4 was planned as a
London-South Wales route.

At the time, the route was to be north of Reading, and what's now the
A404(M) was the last few miles of the M4 (up to the A4 at Burchetts
Green). There were some old M4 signs on that road up until quite
recently (not checked it for a year or two).
--
Roland Perry

In message , JNugent
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the motorway
when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister Ernest Marples'
construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just a flyover on the
A4.

You must be thinking of a different stretch of road - perhaps the
Hammersmith Flyover (which *is* part of the A4).

No, Richard J has outlined the correct sequence of events, and you will
also find them recorded at

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/4.shtml

where you will see that the Chiswick flyover opened in 1959. It didn't
become part of the M4 until 1965.

I'm sure the Chiswick Flyover was built in the 1960s (along with what was
then the rest of the M4, as far as Maidenhead).

It was originally going to be designated A4(M) [1] - ie, the motorway
was only going to be a bypass of A4 from Chiswick to Maidenhead), but
it was still a motorway.

The Maidenhead (eastern) bypass was indeed originally numbered A4(M) and
part of it was later incorporated into the M4 (*) - but the intention to
build a motorway from London to South Wales dates back to pre-war road
planning days. It was designated the "South Wales Motorway" at an early
stage, and appears as such in maps even before constructed started (e.g.
the 1961 Bartholomew Reference Atlas of London).

(*) See http://www.free-definition.com/A404M-motorway.html
--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

The Maidenhead (eastern) bypass was indeed originally numbered A4(M) and
part of it was later incorporated into the M4 (*) - but the intention to
build a motorway from London to South Wales dates back to pre-war road
planning days. It was designated the "South Wales Motorway" at an early
stage, and appears as such in maps even before constructed started (e.g.
the 1961 Bartholomew Reference Atlas of London).

(*) See http://www.free-definition.com/A404M-motorway.html

Somewhere I have a brochure produced in 1938-9 to promote industrial estates
in the Forest of Dean and Chepstow area, and that shows a dual carriageway
road tunnel under the Severn, running almost on the alignment of the now A49
and the first Severn Road Crossing.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Terry Harper wrote:

Somewhere I have a brochure produced in 1938-9 to promote
industrial estates in the Forest of Dean and Chepstow area, and
that shows a dual carriageway road tunnel under the Severn, running
almost on the alignment of the now A49 and the first Severn Road
Crossing.

The A49 route is Ross-on-Wye/Hereford/Shrewsbury/Warrington/Preston
(nearly). I assume you mean almost on the alignment of the original M4
Severn Bridge, now M48.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Paul Terry wrote:
In message ,
Richard J. writes

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's
motorways were generally designed for 70 mph,

There was no speed limit whatsoever for the first six years ... it
was not until 1965, after reports of test drivers reaching nearly
170mph on the M1, that a 70mph limit was introduced on motorways.

I know that, but nevertheless the bends, gradients, sightlines etc. of
British motorways were in general designed for safety at 70 mph (current
design speed 75mph = 120kph).

but it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard.

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the
motorway when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister
Ernest Marples' construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just
a flyover on the A4.

Of course I don't mean the original Chiswick flyover, which doesn't have
any bends! . I mean the first bend on the M4 elevated section, near the
EMC (ex-Data General) clock tower. See
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.sr...&z=1&st=4&ar=Y
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the
motorway when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister
Ernest Marples' construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just
a flyover on the A4.

Of course I don't mean the original Chiswick flyover, which doesn't have
any bends! .

Obviously I wasn't sufficiently clear: I refer to the bend immediately
to the west of the flyover.

I mean the first bend on the M4 elevated section, near the
EMC (ex-Data General) clock tower. See
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.sr...&z=1&st=4&ar=Y

Yes, we are talking about the same bend.

--
Paul Terry