Annabel Smyth wrote:
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 at 08:40:56, Dan Gravell
wrote:


And yes, a reliable link to Brixton would be much nicer. I know about
the corridor through Streatham particularly around the library that
makes it difficult, but either just sod the cars or bulldoze Lidl imo.
Either way it's win:win


Why can't they go down Tooting Bec Common, if they can't go down the
High Road? (No, I don't want them to bulldoze Lidl; I like Lidl!)

If you consider the route to the common that's quite a gradient at
Ambleside Avenue. I'm not sure if trams could cope with that? (not an
expert myself though).

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though... what
do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham Hill and
onto Brixton from there.

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 at 08:43:43, Dan Gravell
wrote:

Annabel Smyth wrote:

Why can't they go down Tooting Bec Common, if they can't go down
the
High Road? (No, I don't want them to bulldoze Lidl; I like Lidl!)

If you consider the route to the common that's quite a gradient at
Ambleside Avenue. I'm not sure if trams could cope with that? (not an
expert myself though).

True, and where would it come out... it's probably not really practical.

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 6 June 2004

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....


Streatham needs the Victoria Line extension first mooted about 50 years ago.

Brixton-Streatham Hill-Streatham-Streatham Common----- thence overground to
Croydon.

It's a blindingly simple idea, and would almost definitely become the most
heavily-trafficked tube route out of Central London overnight thanks to the
existing rapidity of the Vic.

I know there were tunnelling problems in the 1960s, but surely technology
has moved on sufficiently now for this not to be a problem. They could
resite Brixton on a straight alignment and at a deeper level if necessary.

Seems like TfL are obsessed with pouring their money into 'new' schemes
which actually don't involve a lot of new routes at all, but are simply
using existing infrastructure in a differently-branded way.

BTN

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....

Streatham needs the Victoria Line extension first mooted about 50 years ago.

Brixton-Streatham Hill-Streatham-Streatham Common----- thence overground to
Croydon.

I'll drink to that.

Seems like TfL are obsessed with pouring their money into 'new' schemes
which actually don't involve a lot of new routes at all, but are simply
using existing infrastructure in a differently-branded way.

Perhaps because you get more return-on-investment by using the money to
improve existing but poor lines than by building entirely new ones.

tom

--
Gotta have skills to pay those bills.

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....



Streatham needs the Victoria Line extension first mooted about 50 years ago.

Brixton-Streatham Hill-Streatham-Streatham Common----- thence overground to
Croydon.

It's a blindingly simple idea, and would almost definitely become the most
heavily-trafficked tube route out of Central London overnight thanks to the
existing rapidity of the Vic.

You've just hit the problem. The Victoria is already bursting at the
seams in the peaks. They can't extend it because there isn't enough
capacity on the current route.

Annabel pointed out in another post that the frequency is already every
2 minutes (30tph). If the line were extended to Croydon, the extra
passengers would mean that either the frequency in the centre would have
to be increased (very difficult) or platforms would have to be extended,
both along the existing route and the overground stations to Croydon
(very expensive).

An extension to Streatham with a corresponding frequency increase in the
centre with new signalling might be able to cope - but Croydon would be
too much.

I know there were tunnelling problems in the 1960s, but surely technology
has moved on sufficiently now for this not to be a problem. They could
resite Brixton on a straight alignment and at a deeper level if necessary.

Seems like TfL are obsessed with pouring their money into 'new' schemes
which actually don't involve a lot of new routes at all, but are simply
using existing infrastructure in a differently-branded way.

I think this is just a reflection of the times - for radial routes, many
key traffic generators are already based around the existing rail
routes, so services like Crossrail are most useful since they take the
traffic from these routes directly to their destination rather than
dropping it off at the edges of the centre.

Construction costs also seem to be escalating out of control (see the
Jubilee Line Extension) and using existing infrastructure in a different
way keeps costs down. I believe the JLE cost around £1,000,000 per metre
of length - tunnelling is expensive even if it is now technically
possible under South London.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

It's a blindingly simple idea, and would almost definitely become the
most
heavily-trafficked tube route out of Central London overnight thanks to
the
existing rapidity of the Vic.

You've just hit the problem. The Victoria is already bursting at the
seams in the peaks. They can't extend it because there isn't enough
capacity on the current route.


So... they are avoiding building the routes for which there would be the
greatest demand...

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Surely extending the Vic Southwards and the Bakerloo South-Easterly would
reduce the bottleneck situations at Stockwell, Kennington and Elephant?

As I see it, the more unique routes that exist, the greater the choice for
the traveller, and therefore the less congested each individual route is.
Because most of the current schemes are only contextually repositioning the
existing infrastructure, they aren't solving the problems at all.

South London needs more rapid routes to the centre, and better radial
connections (ever tried getting from anywhere in South/SW London to SE
London _without_ going into London Bridge? It's a joke).

BTN

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:


It's a blindingly simple idea, and would almost definitely become the

most

heavily-trafficked tube route out of Central London overnight thanks to

the

existing rapidity of the Vic.

You've just hit the problem. The Victoria is already bursting at the
seams in the peaks. They can't extend it because there isn't enough
capacity on the current route.



So... they are avoiding building the routes for which there would be the
greatest demand...

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Surely extending the Vic Southwards and the Bakerloo South-Easterly would
reduce the bottleneck situations at Stockwell, Kennington and Elephant?

As I see it, the more unique routes that exist, the greater the choice for
the traveller, and therefore the less congested each individual route is.
Because most of the current schemes are only contextually repositioning the
existing infrastructure, they aren't solving the problems at all.

This is a bit self-contradictory. Since it would be so difficult to
extend the Victoria to Croydon, the alternative should be to build an
entirely new cross-London route. Unfortunately this is very expensive
(Crossrail is est. £10-13bn and increasing with every review) and we can
probably only expect a project like this about every 20 years.

The problem on the Victoria line is in the centre rather than at the
edges. You *could* extend it to Croydon - but there'd be no room on the
trains for anyone else to actually get on them. In the outer areas, it
might be possible to dedicate existing track to Crossrail-like services
and thus improve the frequency (part of the current problem in South
London is conflicting movements as trains cross each other's routes).

Long sections of tunnel in south London would be prohibitively expensive
for the benefits gained; these tunnels are likely to cost more than the
JLE (i.e. more than £1m per metre!!).

South London needs more rapid routes to the centre, and better radial
connections (ever tried getting from anywhere in South/SW London to SE
London _without_ going into London Bridge? It's a joke).

I think south London needs more *capacity* into the centre (either
through higher frequency or longer/double-deck trains). Rapidity
certainly seems to be good from key centres such as East Croydon (about
30 mins to Victoria or London Bridge on a fast train?), Bromley South
and Wimbledon (SWT).

However, even increased capacity just shifts the problem to the termini
and the central Underground network. Enter Crossrail 2 & Thameslink 2000.

As for orbital connections (I assume you mean orbital not radial), I
agree that these are a problem. However, improvements are planned, with
the East London Line extensions and Croydon Tramlink extensions to
Sutton, Tooting, Crystal Palace and Streatham on the table. Further
improvements are likely to be difficult since it is difficult to cater
for the large number of origins and destinations in south London.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

The problem on the Victoria line is in the centre rather than at the
edges. You *could* extend it to Croydon - but there'd be no room on the
trains for anyone else to actually get on them. In the outer areas, it
might be possible to dedicate existing track to Crossrail-like services
and thus improve the frequency (part of the current problem in South
London is conflicting movements as trains cross each other's routes).

Thinking about this, I wonder how many of the passengers leaving and joining
the Victoria Line at Victoria are actually headed for stations which would
be served by an extension? If it is quicker to stay on board and go to
Streatham Common or Thornton Heath, say, then they wouldn't be tempted to
change at Victoria, so congestion would reduce.

Presumably you would use the slow lines from Streatham Common to Croydon for
the Victoria line trains?
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 at 18:43:59, Dave Arquati wrote:

The problem on the Victoria line is in the centre rather than at the
edges. You *could* extend it to Croydon - but there'd be no room on
the trains for anyone else to actually get on them. In the outer areas, it
might be possible to dedicate existing track to Crossrail-like services
and thus improve the frequency (part of the current problem in South
London is conflicting movements as trains cross each other's routes).

The thing is, at the moment, the Tube empties out at Brixton and
everybody crowds on to southbound buses. Which, admittedly, mostly
start in Brixton so are empty (but not for long). It's better than it
was, but trying to get on a southbound bus in Brixton at about 5.30-6.00
pm is still a nightmare. What it will be like if/when the CRT opens, I
dread to think.

At least if people didn't have to get off the Tube or CRT in Brixton,
the buses would be emptier for those who chose to use them!

I think south London needs more *capacity* into the centre (either
through higher frequency or longer/double-deck trains). Rapidity
certainly seems to be good from key centres such as East Croydon
(about 30 mins to Victoria or London Bridge on a fast train?), Bromley
South and Wimbledon (SWT).

It is good, and the trains are (allegedly) frequent, even if they don't
run on time. But there are some black spots, and getting from Brixton
to Streatham is one of them. Where I live in Brixton, I can't even go
there directly, but have to either walk, or change buses.....
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 6 June 2004