"Marc Brett" wrote...

There was some talk about eliminating Kew Gardens and Richmond from
the District Line, to be replaced by Crossrail. The PDF map shows
them both in place. Does this mean that the District Line will be
preserved intact, or is this still under review?


And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at Old Street while the WAGN
line from Finsbury Park runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at Old Street while the
WAGN line from Finsbury Park runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics route from
Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains which currently terminate at
King's Cross onto Thameslink. Thus, there will still be service from FP to
MG, via Old Street.

tom

--
I see large and small words on this page, arranged in long rows separated by little dotty characters. Suspect written by little dotty characters, too. -- RonJeffries

Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at Old Street while the
WAGN line from Finsbury Park runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics route from
Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains which currently terminate at
King's Cross onto Thameslink. Thus, there will still be service from FP to
MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

Dave

--
If the Internet is a Marx Brothers movie, and
Web, e-mail, and IRC are Groucho, Chico, and Harpo,
then Usenet is Zeppo.
(Harlan Messinger in ciwas, January 2004)

"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at
Old Street while the WAGN line from Finsbury Park
runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.

Incidentally, the NR symbol at West Hampstead presumably represents the new
Chiltern interchange - it can't represent the NR services which currently
call here, because they are all shown as lines on the map, so no symbol
would be required.

Then again, there is an unexplained NR symbol at Blackhorse Road. They
probably just forgot to remove it when they added the Goblin to the map.

The NR symbols at West Brompton and Olympia would seem to represent services
to Watford, which presumably won't call at Shepherds Bush.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at
Old Street while the WAGN line from Finsbury Park
runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.

The map fails in one respect: it doesn't show existing NR lines - such as
the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and the North London Line which were
usually shown even on LT-only maps long after FP-Moorgate transferred from
LT to BR. But I agree: the NR symbols at FP, OS and Moorgate *imply* the
existence of the NR line.

Where existing NR lines are shown on the map as extensions to LT lines (eg
Peckham to Clapham Junction extension to East London Line), does this imply
that NR and LT services will run together on the same lines or does it imply
that NR services will cease when LT services begin? The map doesn't answer
that question. Similarly for the New Cross to Crystal Palace and West
Croydon extensions to the East London line - will those routes be LT-only or
LT and NR interleaved?

Actually, the situation at Clapham Junction is interesting because the map
shows the existing Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction line as Silverlink
Metro, continuing unbroken (implying no change of train) as the ELL
extension. Does this mean WJ-CJ trains will be routed to use one of the
high-numbered platforms at CJ (as for long-distance trains that use the
WJ-CJ line), since Platform 2 at CJ is a terminus platform!


Lots of interesting additions:

- Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge, presumably along GW Main line for some of the
route - will it then use the disused trackbed of the GW Main Line - Uxbridge
Vine Street line, I wonder?
- Heathrow to Essex and Kent via Crossrail: I wonder if this will be the
death knell of the premium-rate Heathrow Express service?
- North London Line terminating at Stratford instead of continuing to North
Woolwich
- Greenwich Waterfront line - interesting!
- Cross River Transit using a re-opened Aldwych station
- Thameslink using ECML as well as existing MML - I wonder how far north it
will serve on the ECML

In article m,
says...

- Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge, presumably along GW Main line for some of the
route
This is (I assume) the West London tram which will run down the middle
of the Uxbridge Road from Shepherds Bush to Uxbridge. Very controversial
in Ealing.

Martin

Martin Underwood wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...

Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :


On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:


And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at
Old Street while the WAGN line from Finsbury Park
runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.


The map fails in one respect: it doesn't show existing NR lines - such as
the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and the North London Line which were
usually shown even on LT-only maps long after FP-Moorgate transferred from
LT to BR. But I agree: the NR symbols at FP, OS and Moorgate *imply* the
existence of the NR line.

Where existing NR lines are shown on the map as extensions to LT lines (eg
Peckham to Clapham Junction extension to East London Line), does this imply
that NR and LT services will run together on the same lines or does it imply
that NR services will cease when LT services begin? The map doesn't answer
that question. Similarly for the New Cross to Crystal Palace and West
Croydon extensions to the East London line - will those routes be LT-only or
LT and NR interleaved?

The latter.

Actually, the situation at Clapham Junction is interesting because the map
shows the existing Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction line as Silverlink
Metro, continuing unbroken (implying no change of train) as the ELL
extension. Does this mean WJ-CJ trains will be routed to use one of the
high-numbered platforms at CJ (as for long-distance trains that use the
WJ-CJ line), since Platform 2 at CJ is a terminus platform!

I think this is just bad design - there is no plan yet for ELL services
to continue up the WLL; the capacity just isn't there. However there are
plans for a single TOC to run the WLL, ELL, NLL and GOBLIN.

Lots of interesting additions:

- Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge, presumably along GW Main line for some of the
route - will it then use the disused trackbed of the GW Main Line - Uxbridge
Vine Street line, I wonder?

Nope, this is the West London Tram which runs along the Uxbridge Road.
Not all stops are shown (it has about 40 stops).

- Heathrow to Essex and Kent via Crossrail: I wonder if this will be the
death knell of the premium-rate Heathrow Express service?

Probably not. A new service is starting in December run jointly by BAA
and First; it is a stopping service running between Paddington, Ealing
Broadway, Southall, Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Central. It is this
service which Crossrail would take over.

There will be no ticket for Heathrow Connect from Paddington to
Heathrow; only for Paddington to intermediate stations (fares go to
First), and for those stations to Heathrow (fares go to BAA).

I have information on my website at:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/67

This fares structure will have to change if Crossrail runs these
services, but I imagine that BAA will still charge a (smaller) premium
for tickets to Heathrow.


- North London Line terminating at Stratford instead of continuing to North
Woolwich

The section from Canning Town to North Woolwich is already being made
obsolete by the DLR City Airport extension which has better-placed
stations than Silvertown and North Woolwich. They also want to run
services along the NLL from Canning Town to Stratford since this will
make it easier for them to reach Stratford International than extending
the current Stratford branch. Actually their plans involve diverting the
NLL up to Tottenham Hale but that's not shown on this map.

(http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/45)

- Greenwich Waterfront line - interesting!

Not so much a railway or tram as a "super-bus". Segregated alignments
initially for bendy-buses, with allowance for later conversion to tram.
TfL view this as a "transit" network - superior to buses and almost as
good as tram - so this is presumably why they are including it on this
map. It would certainly encourage people to use it. There are many more
stops than shown on this map, although not as many as a traditional bus
route.

(http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/27)

- Cross River Transit using a re-opened Aldwych station

Not quite - this is another tram and does not involve reopening Aldwych
underground station. Aldwych on this map is a tramstop near the junction
of Aldwych and Drury Lane. Altogether there are about 30 stops, so again
not all of these are shown. Also, the map fails to show the other
proposed northern branch which runs from Euston to King's Cross, and
then into the King's Cross railway lands to serve the planned new
development there.

(http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/2)

- Thameslink using ECML as well as existing MML - I wonder how far north it
will serve on the ECML

Peterborough (and King's Lynn). Services on that branch will run:
Peterborough - Horsham / East Grinstead
King's Lynn - Ashford International via Sevenoaks
Cambridge - Eastbourne / Littlehampton
Letchworth - Guildford via West Croydon.

(http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/23)

Thanks for the ideal post with which to plug my website :-)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Actually, the situation at Clapham Junction is interesting because the
map
shows the existing Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction line as
Silverlink
Metro, continuing unbroken (implying no change of train) as the ELL
extension. Does this mean WJ-CJ trains will be routed to use one of the
high-numbered platforms at CJ (as for long-distance trains that use the
WJ-CJ line), since Platform 2 at CJ is a terminus platform!

I think this is just bad design - there is no plan yet for ELL services
to continue up the WLL; the capacity just isn't there. However there are
plans for a single TOC to run the WLL, ELL, NLL and GOBLIN.

Surely they could extend the ELL services to take over the existing WLL
Clapham - Willesden ones?

Also they've missed out the planned station on the ELL extension at Brixton.
Not having an ELL station at Brixton would be a cardinal sin IMHO.

Angus

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
Martin Underwood wrote:

- Heathrow to Essex and Kent via Crossrail: I wonder if this will be the
death knell of the premium-rate Heathrow Express service?

Probably not. A new service is starting in December run jointly by BAA
and First; it is a stopping service running between Paddington, Ealing
Broadway, Southall, Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Central. It is this
service which Crossrail would take over.

There will be no ticket for Heathrow Connect from Paddington to
Heathrow; only for Paddington to intermediate stations (fares go to
First), and for those stations to Heathrow (fares go to BAA).

I have information on my website at:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/67

This fares structure will have to change if Crossrail runs these
services, but I imagine that BAA will still charge a (smaller) premium
for tickets to Heathrow.

And I bet Heathrow will be "conveniently" outside the outer-most Travelcard
zone. I wonder how many people will use Heathrow to (for example) Southall
and then Thames Trains Southall to Paddington (and vice versa) to avoid
paying the premium. I certainly would. What's the betting that TT are
"asked" to arrange that their connecting trains depart 1 minute before the
Heathrow Connect train arrives and vice versa, giving the longest journey
time possible? The BAA fare is ridiculously expensive and is just taking the
**** - they deserve to be undercut by Heathrow Connect. It's a shame that GW
and TT services from the west can't introduce Southall or Hayes & Harlington
as an additional stop for connection to Heathrow: a cross-platform change at
a railway station would be much easier than having to lug your cases down
the steps at Reading and enduring the delays while the luggage is loaded
onto the coach and endure the slow journey out of Reading and along the M4
to Heathrow.

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

- Thameslink using ECML as well as existing MML - I wonder how far north
it
will serve on the ECML

Peterborough (and King's Lynn). Services on that branch will run:
Peterborough - Horsham / East Grinstead
King's Lynn - Ashford International via Sevenoaks
Cambridge - Eastbourne / Littlehampton
Letchworth - Guildford via West Croydon.

(http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/23)

Thanks for the ideal post with which to plug my website :-)

Glad to be able to oblige! It looks an excellent site: I've just bookmarked
it for future reference.

I was wondering how the link from the Thameslink line to the ECML would be
achieved: you explain it all. Presumably whereas the Eurostar trains will
rise from the tunnel to the platforms in the Barlow train shed, the
Thameslink lines will remain at low level to feed into the existing
low-level (underground!) Thameslink tracks just north of the St Pancras
Midland station.

Will the pedestrian connections between KX and St P Midland be an underpass
with connections from each platform, or will passengers have to walk south
onto the concourse of KX for the tunnels north-west to St P Midland?

I'll have to explore the area around KX and St P (avoiding the "working
girls"!) when I'm next in London - things have obviously changed a great
deal since I was last there about 18 months ago. Is the CTRL exhibition in
the Portakabin north of St Pancras still open? I've forgotten which road it
was on.