Dave Arquati wrote:
I've just skim-read the Montague Report, finally available four
months late at:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C168319D8

[...]

The other main concerns the report raised were that the complexity
of the branches meant that the proposed 24tph through the core
section was unachievable given that it would require Crossrail
trains to arrive at Network Rail "interfaces" on time (within 5
mins) over 95% of the time. I think this assumed that Crossrail
would not be segregated on any of the branches except Shenfield.

Unfortunately Crossrail have taken down their consultation site with all
the detailed information, but IIRC there will still be fast trains to
Liverpool Street from Shenfield and Romford.

Crossrail is certainly not segregated in West London, sharing tracks
with FGWL DMUs on the GreatWestern main line (hence the proposal to
replace some of these as far as Maidenhead), and with SWT services
between Richmond and Kingston. Also there would be flat junctions with
the NLL at Gunnersbury and Richmond.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes
I think this assumed that Crossrail
would not be segregated on any of the branches except Shenfield.

Unfortunately Crossrail have taken down their consultation site with all
the detailed information, but IIRC there will still be fast trains to
Liverpool Street from Shenfield and Romford.

Is the proposal to segregate the trains on the Shenfield branch? Is that
by commandeering two of the existing four lines (which would surely
cause conflicts between Southend and Chelmsford trains sharing the
remaining two) or are they proposing to triple the tracks (an expensive
exercise especially through places like the Brentwood cutting).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
writes
I think this assumed that Crossrail
would not be segregated on any of the branches except Shenfield.

Unfortunately Crossrail have taken down their consultation site with all
the detailed information, but IIRC there will still be fast trains to
Liverpool Street from Shenfield and Romford.

Is the proposal to segregate the trains on the Shenfield branch? Is that
by commandeering two of the existing four lines (which would surely
cause conflicts between Southend and Chelmsford trains sharing the
remaining two) or are they proposing to triple the tracks (an expensive
exercise especially through places like the Brentwood cutting).

The former, although some recent versions of the plan have given up on
the segregation idea.

Roland Perry wrote in
:

In message , Richard J.
writes
I think this assumed that Crossrail would not be segregated on any of
the branches except Shenfield.

Unfortunately Crossrail have taken down their consultation site with all
the detailed information, but IIRC there will still be fast trains to
Liverpool Street from Shenfield and Romford.

Is the proposal to segregate the trains on the Shenfield branch? Is that
by commandeering two of the existing four lines (which would surely
cause conflicts between Southend and Chelmsford trains sharing the
remaining two) or are they proposing to triple the tracks (an expensive
exercise especially through places like the Brentwood cutting).

The Shenfield service is pretty much segregated already: a few longer
distance services use the electric (=slow) lines between Liverpool Street
and Stratford, mainly due to the fact that there are simultaneous
departures (at xx.00 to Norwich, when Ipswich tunnel reopens, and Southend
and at xx.45 to Ipswich (currently diverted to Harwich) and Clacton).

Only on Sundays do fast trains to Romford use the slow lines.

This leaves the Maryland problem (note that Maryland does not appear on any
of the Crossrail maps ...)

"David Jackman" wrote in message
52.50...

This leaves the Maryland problem (note that Maryland does not appear on
any
of the Crossrail maps ...)


Does anybody know what they might be? About a year ago CLRL ltd sent me an
email assuring me that Maryland would continue to be served by other
services, but I can't see it if all the inner suburbans are going to go to
Crossrail. Is there a plan to use spare capacity at Liverpool Street to take
some of the Tilbury line trains via Woodgrange Park that I don't know about?
(I would have thought Liverpool Street - Stratford - Barking - Rainham -
Tilbury could potentially be quite popular).

Or are they planning to close Maryland - and if so, why? Is to too close to
the planned portal, or do they just not think it's important enough to add
an extra minute to the journey?

Jonn Elledge

"Jonn Elledge" wrote in
:


"David Jackman" wrote in message
52.50...

This leaves the Maryland problem (note that Maryland does not appear
on any of the Crossrail maps ...)


Does anybody know what they might be? About a year ago CLRL ltd sent me
an email assuring me that Maryland would continue to be served by other
services, but I can't see it if all the inner suburbans are going to go
to Crossrail. Is there a plan to use spare capacity at Liverpool Street
to take some of the Tilbury line trains via Woodgrange Park that I
don't know about? (I would have thought Liverpool Street - Stratford -
Barking - Rainham - Tilbury could potentially be quite popular).

Or are they planning to close Maryland - and if so, why? Is to too
close to the planned portal, or do they just not think it's important
enough to add an extra minute to the journey?

Jonn Elledge




Crossrail trains will be 10 cars. Maryland only has room for 8 with no
room to extend at either end (there are road bridges). Therefore Crossrail
trains can't serve Maryland.

I can see three possible solutions to this problem:

a) (Crossrails stated proposal) A "rump" service - presumably either Gidea
Park/Ilford to Liverpool Street, serving Maryland. The slow lines
currently have slightly more than 12 trains per hour in the peak so this
makes sense, though it would be less than ideal operationally. Off-peak it
is a nonsense.

b) Fit selective door opening and stop Crossrail services but only open the
doors on the front 8 cars. (the 375 fleet in Kent makes extensive use of
selective door opening, as does the existing underground, so there are
plenty of precedents)

c) Close Maryland.

David

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, David Jackman wrote:

"Jonn Elledge" wrote in
:

"David Jackman" wrote in message
52.50...

This leaves the Maryland problem (note that Maryland does not appear
on any of the Crossrail maps ...)

Or are they planning to close Maryland - and if so, why? Is to too
close to the planned portal, or do they just not think it's important
enough to add an extra minute to the journey?

Crossrail trains will be 10 cars. Maryland only has room for 8 with no
room to extend at either end (there are road bridges).

Moreover, presumably, road bridges that can't be widened?

Therefore Crossrail trains can't serve Maryland.

I can see three possible solutions to this problem:

b) Fit selective door opening and stop Crossrail services but only open
the doors on the front 8 cars. (the 375 fleet in Kent makes extensive
use of selective door opening, as does the existing underground, so
there are plenty of precedents)

Hang on, though; on the tube, it's just the last door in each end car that
doesn't open, so anyone in those cars who wants to get off can do so via
another door. If you've got two whole cars with no open doors, anyone
who's in one of them and wants to get off is probably buggered.

What happens in Kent?

And don't forget:

d) Park the train with the first eight carriages in the station, open the
doors on those, let people off, close them, drive the train forward two
carriage lengths, park again, open the back eight doors.

Or even:

e) Kill all HMRI and HSE inspectors, bring the train in so that the first
eight cars are at the platform, open the doors, then drive forward very
slowly, opening each door as it reaches the platform or closing it as it
passes beyond it, until the last car is at the platform, then close up and
drive off. Fast.

tom

--
I know you wanna try and get away, but it's the hardest thing you'll ever know

In article , Tom Anderson wrote:
[snip discussion of Maryland platform being too short for Crossrail trains]

e) Kill all HMRI and HSE inspectors,

That should be enough all by itself. I vote for alternative e!

Niklas
--
"You just don't get to see, on the .us shows, the pathologist thoughtfully
weighing a decomposing heart in one hand while the corpse is lying open and
gutted in plain view on the slab behind him."
-- David Cameron Staples

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 at 10:51:20, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Hang on, though; on the tube, it's just the last door in each end car that
doesn't open, so anyone in those cars who wants to get off can do so via
another door. If you've got two whole cars with no open doors, anyone
who's in one of them and wants to get off is probably buggered.

What happens in Kent?

I don't know what happens in Kent, but when I travelled on the
mid-Sussex line they made on-train announcements before all the shorter
stations to tell "customers" that they needed to be in the front end of
the train if they wanted to get off there, so there was plenty of time
for them to change into the relevant carriage before they got there.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 18 July 2004

Tom Anderson wrote in message ...
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, David Jackman wrote:

"Jonn Elledge" wrote in
:

"David Jackman" wrote in message
52.50...

This leaves the Maryland problem (note that Maryland does not appear
on any of the Crossrail maps ...)

Or are they planning to close Maryland - and if so, why? Is to too
close to the planned portal, or do they just not think it's important
enough to add an extra minute to the journey?

Crossrail trains will be 10 cars. Maryland only has room for 8 with no
room to extend at either end (there are road bridges).

Therefore Crossrail trains can't serve Maryland.

I can see three possible solutions to this problem:

b) Fit selective door opening and stop Crossrail services but only open
the doors on the front 8 cars. (the 375 fleet in Kent makes extensive
use of selective door opening, as does the existing underground, so
there are plenty of precedents)

Hang on, though; on the tube, it's just the last door in each end car that
doesn't open, so anyone in those cars who wants to get off can do so via
another door. If you've got two whole cars with no open doors, anyone
who's in one of them and wants to get off is probably buggered.

What happens in Kent?

I don't know about Kent, but I managed to google up this from Southern
Railway (formerly South Central, formerly Connex South Central, etc
etc):

http://www.southernrailway.com/pdfs/stakeholder_briefs/September-03-Brief.pdf

begin quote
SDO – some more information

South Central will soon start operating class 377 trains on the 0625
Eastbourne-London Bridge and the 1745 London Bridge-Eastbourne
services. These will be followed by the 0717 Eastbourne-London Bridge
and the 1752 London Bridge-Bognor Regis services.

With the approval of Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate (HMRI) these
new services will operate a Selective Door Opening system (SDO) on a
trial basis. SDO ensures the correct number of doors open for the
length of a platform, so long trains can stop safely at stations with
small platforms. SDO uses GPS to tell the train where it is. Each
station has the platform length programmed into a database on the
train, and the door control system uses this information to allow the
right number of doors to open at each station. The system is safer
[than what?] as it prevents passengers opening doors on carriages not
at the platform.

When approaching a station with a short platform, the on-train
information system will announce the next station, that it has a short
platform and the number of coaches from which you can leave the train.
The message will also be shown on the visual displays. At the station
only those doors next to the platform will be released (unlocked).
Doors on the remaining coaches will not be released and will not be
able to be opened. Passengers will need to make their way forward to
those carriages that will have their doors opened. Conductors will be
on board to help passengers.

The trains above will be 12-cars long, and the stations at which SDO
will be used a

Eastbourne-London Bridge
Hampden Park 5-car platforms
Berwick 8-car
Glynde 6-car
Cooksbridge 6-car
Plumpton 7-car
Balcombe 8-car

London Bridge-Bognor Regis
Ifield 5-car platforms
Littlehaven 4-car
Christs Hospital 7-car
Billingshurst 4-car
Pulborough 9-car
end quote



Now, it's some months since the date on this document, but I don't
know to what extent the above proposals have been implemented. I do
know that there is at least once Southern departure ex Victoria for
which the announcement includes 'Customers for ... must travel in the
front seven coaches, furthest from the ticket barrier etc'; I can't
remember where.