Dr John Stockton wrote in message ...
JRS: In article , dated
Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:17:41, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:02:03 +0100, Dr John Stockton
wrote:

JRS: In article , dated
Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:27:07, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :

Any real pedant would know that in the vicinity of the zero meridian
we stopped using GMT - based on astronomical time in 1972 and switched
(after failing to agree the defining language for its TLA with the
French) to UTC - based on atomic time.

"We" does not include the UK, where legal time remains GMT-based, use of
UTC time-signals notwithstanding.

Do we agree that the civil time used in the UK is UTC and that
legislation has failed to keep up with this?

Yes, and no. UK civil time is GMT, but law enforcement has been lax.

Fascinated by why you say almost all of the UK. Is there some part in
a different time zone?

There is some part which, I have been told by one who should know, keeps
a time differing significantly from London Time. I doubt whether it
should be described as a zone.

Isn't there some clock in Oxford that's intentionally about 10 mins or so off?

(Mait001) wrote the following in:


Apparently the scrap men don't like buying up the Routemasters
simply because they are so difficult to break up. They take about
12 hours per vehicle compared to other buses that take about 3
hours. (figures based on something that someone said a few months
ago so they may be innaccurat... but you get the gist?)

Nick


Good - the thought of a Routemaster being scrapped fills me with
the same sort of revulsion as infanticide or gang-rape.

None of them will go for scrap anyway, they'll all be sold on to other
operators.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

JRS: In article ,
dated Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:42:03, seen in news:uk.transport.london, James
posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote in message news:c2GbxvBY3PKBFw
...
JRS: In article , dated
Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:17:41, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :

Fascinated by why you say almost all of the UK. Is there some part in
a different time zone?

There is some part which, I have been told by one who should know, keeps
a time differing significantly from London Time. I doubt whether it
should be described as a zone.

Isn't there some clock in Oxford that's intentionally about 10 mins or so off?

I think I recollect it; in Bristol, or in an Oxford college. But it's
not kept slow; it is kept at local solar mean time (summer time?). The
necessary delay is four minutes per degree of longitude, which makes 10
minutes about right for Bristol.

Dacre Balsdon, writing about half a century ago, gives ten minutes as
the overall variation between different Oxford chiming public clocks.

But those are only indications, and do not correspond to the time used
thereabouts.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.

On 23 Aug 2004 14:21:29 GMT, Robin May
wrote:

None of them will go for scrap anyway, they'll all be sold on to other
operators.

You sure? Unlike other second-hand ex-London buses, which are the
mainstay of many local operators around the country, Routemasters
require crew operation and are therefore too expensive.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

(Neil Williams) wrote the following
in:

On 23 Aug 2004 14:21:29 GMT, Robin May
wrote:

None of them will go for scrap anyway, they'll all be sold on to
other operators.

You sure?

Yes. I've read things about them being bought up after routes are
converted, saying that demand exceeds supply.

Unlike other second-hand ex-London buses, which are the
mainstay of many local operators around the country, Routemasters
require crew operation and are therefore too expensive.

They aren't generally bought for operating normal services. They're for
private hi things like weddings where a nice bright, shiny
Routemaster - the traditional and iconic London bus - will suit the
occasion a lot better than other kinds of bus.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

In article , Dr John Stockton
writes
Fascinated by why you say almost all of the UK. Is there some part in
a different time zone?
There is some part which, I have been told by one who should know, keeps
a time differing significantly from London Time. I doubt whether it
should be described as a zone.

My understanding, though I haven't been able to confirm it, is that
official time throughout the Channel Tunnel Concession Area is that of
Paris, not London.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article ,
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article , dated
Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:17:41, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :
Do we agree that the civil time used in the UK is UTC and that
legislation has failed to keep up with this?

Yes, and no. UK civil time is GMT, but law enforcement has been lax.

Enter the DTI, dressed in nice red uniforms and demanding to see all
wris****ches ...

Nick
--
"And we will be restoring neurotypicality just as soon as we are sure
what is normal anyway. Thank you". -- not quite DNA

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:11:04 +0100, Dr John Stockton
wrote:

JRS: In article , dated
Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:17:41, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:02:03 +0100, Dr John Stockton
wrote:

JRS: In article , dated
Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:27:07, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Peter
Sumner posted :

.....

Do we agree that the civil time used in the UK is UTC and that
legislation has failed to keep up with this?

Yes, and no. UK civil time is GMT, but law enforcement has been lax.

I'll go with that. Law enforcement needs to be lax, the only accurate
time standards in the UK being UTC and not GMT.

Fascinated by why you say almost all of the UK. Is there some part in
a different time zone?

There is some part which, I have been told by one who should know, keeps
a time differing significantly from London Time. I doubt whether it
should be described as a zone.

Tease tease
--
Peter Sumner

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:33:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:32:43 on
Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Peter Sumner
remarked:
NPL say http://www.npl.co.uk/time/ "Home of the nation's atomic time
scale" and "providing the UK time scale related to UTC ", in both
cases its "the" time scale rather than just "a" time.

But go on to say:

"Universal Time (UT) now has three separate definitions (UT0,
UT1, UT2) depending on which corrections have been applied to
the Earth's motion. Authorities are not agreed on whether GMT
equates with UT0 or UT1, however the differences between the two
are of the order of thousandths of a second.

Meanwhile, they are wrong to imply that UTC is the legally accepted
time; unless someone has deliberately "dumbed down", for their Homepage,
the choice between UT0/UT1 and called that UTC.

Yes, but the difference between the different UTs is not relevant is
it. UTC is currently about 500msec away from UT1 and the difference is
changing as we speak. UT0 varies from UT1 according to where you are
on earth, UT2 and UT1r are smoothed versions of UT1. UTC advances
smoothly, a handy feature for measuring intervals - UT does not.

UTC is the time we use in the UK, our computers, our clocks and our
timetables all use it. Legislation still refers to GMT and this
introduces an ambiguity. Does getting to the legal time mean
correcting the time shown on the most accurate clocks we have?

I can't see any dumbing down on the NPL pages - where do you see this?

--
Peter Sumner

In message , Dr John Stockton
writes
JRS: In article ,
dated Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:42:03, seen in news:uk.transport.london, James
posted :
Isn't there some clock in Oxford that's intentionally about 10 mins or so off?

I think I recollect it; in Bristol, or in an Oxford college. But it's
not kept slow; it is kept at local solar mean time (summer time?). The
necessary delay is four minutes per degree of longitude, which makes 10
minutes about right for Bristol.
No, it *is* Oxford (unless there's a Bristol one, too).

The clock concerned is the one in "Tom Tower" at Christ Church
(College). They refused to adopt GMT with the coming of the railways, so
to the present day, the bell (Great Tom" rings 101 times at 9.05pm,
which is (roughly!) 9.00pm Oxford time. (Oxford is 51° 44' 60" North
and 1° 15' 24" West (of Greenwich). So Oxford Time is 5 minutes and 2
seconds behind Greenwich Time. There are those who maintain that
Oxford in, in fact, 500 years, 5 minutes and 2 seconds behind GMT but I
digress....)

The figure of 101, incidentally, represent the College's 101 original
students and the ringing was to call them in to Curfew.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk