On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:30:15 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Hi all,

I sent the following message to Kensington & Chelsea council a while back.

+++++++++++++++

At the junction of Adair Road and Appleford Road (W10) is a crossroads with
no roundabout, no stop signs, no give way signs and no dotted lines on the
road. This evening I used the junction for the first time, and came straight
through the junction in the eastbound direction at about 30 mph, since the
lack of dotted lines made me believe I had the priority. Finding myself in a
dead end, I examined the junction carefully and realised that any car going
through the junction in a north-south or south-north direction would also
believe they had the priority, and there might have been fatalities.

++++++++++++++++

Receiving no reply, I phoned them up, only to be told that it was the
council's policy not to use any road markings on quiet roads because they
thought the streets looked better without them. I drove this route yesterday
for the second time and even though I was thinking about the previous
incident, the junction sprung itself on me, and a sharp brake application
was needed to avoid driving through it at speed again.

Does anyone know if the council's policy is legal? The whole neighbourhood
seems exceptionally quiet, but this route is the only reasonable way to
avoid the banned right turn from Harrow Road to Great Western Road, so I
can't be the only non-resident to use it.

There are loads round where I live (south Manchester). My GFs driving
instructor told her to treat them all as give ways irrespective of the
direction from which she approached. She passed first time so it must
have been reasonable advice :-)
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There are loads round where I live (south Manchester). My GFs driving
instructor told her to treat them all as give ways irrespective of the
direction from which she approached. She passed first time so it must
have been reasonable advice :-)

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through an unmarked crossroads
at speed - even if you are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major road will simply drive
through without slowing)

"Richard Bullock" wrote in message
...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already passing
through it?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:
"Richard Bullock" wrote in
message ...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already
passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks at what's going on six
inches past their window?

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see the presence, or
otherwise, of road markings and signs.

"Brimstone" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote:

But how can you know the junction is unmarked
until you are already passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks
at what's going on six inches past their window?

No, but thanks for suggesting it.

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see
the presence, or otherwise, of road markings and signs.

While you can certainly see whether your own road has markings at the
forthcoming junction, the presence of parked cars often prevents you from
seeing whether the side roads have markings until you are too close to the
junction to stop, even if checking side roads for markings was the only
thing on which a driver had to concentrate.

Thinking about this again, I realise that I have passed many unmarked
junctions, but they are always T-Junctions, and they are almost all in short
twisty dead end roads where I have neither the desire nor the ability to do
more than 15mph. The only exception I can think of is the Y-junction of East
View and Wyburn Avenue in Barnet, where you could easily do 30mph down
either road, but the road there is wide and devoid of parked cars, so
visibility is not a problem.

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council thinks it's
a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a (presumably private) drive
leading to the garages of a block of flats, but when you're approaching via
Appleford Rd it looks like you are on the main road crossing two side roads.
So it has probably slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of
it as a crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council
thinks it's a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a
(presumably private) drive leading to the garages of a block of
flats, but when you're approaching via Appleford Rd it looks like you
are on the main road crossing two side roads. So it has probably
slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of it as a
crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

But why does one road or the other have to have priority? I know that at
first sight it sounds perverse, but if fewer junctions had such markings
then all traffic would (apart from a few morons of course) slow down and
take care. As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right" method that
is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we had a similar "give
way to the left" rule in the UK?

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:10:00 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote this:-

As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

Although I can't comment on this location removal of excessive road
markings has been shown to slow the average speed of motor traffic.
I expect to see more of it, though it will be a low process.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote the following
in:

A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right"
method that is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we
had a similar "give way to the left" rule in the UK?

Wouldn't that just be the reverse of a mini-roundabout? If so, why not
just have a give way to the right rule so that unmarked junctions were
treated as mini-roundabouts.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...
....
But why does one road or the other have to have priority?

IIRC, the Warboys Report concluded that it was a good idea.

....
A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right" method
that
is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we had a similar "give
way to the left" rule in the UK?

Even in France, the bastion of priority from the right, it is now so little
used that you will usually find a warning sign at those junctions where it
still applies. In villages, the same effect is usually achieved by putting a
stop line across the main road where a side road joins from the right.

Colin Bignell

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Richard Bullock" wrote in message
...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already passing
through it?

If you can't see any markings, assume it is unmarked.
If you want to check the markings before passing
through the junction, travel at an appropriate speed.