John Rowland wrote:
"Richard Bullock" wrote in
message ...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already
passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks at what's going on six
inches past their window?

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see the presence, or
otherwise, of road markings and signs.

"Brimstone" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote:

But how can you know the junction is unmarked
until you are already passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks
at what's going on six inches past their window?

No, but thanks for suggesting it.

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see
the presence, or otherwise, of road markings and signs.

While you can certainly see whether your own road has markings at the
forthcoming junction, the presence of parked cars often prevents you from
seeing whether the side roads have markings until you are too close to the
junction to stop, even if checking side roads for markings was the only
thing on which a driver had to concentrate.

Thinking about this again, I realise that I have passed many unmarked
junctions, but they are always T-Junctions, and they are almost all in short
twisty dead end roads where I have neither the desire nor the ability to do
more than 15mph. The only exception I can think of is the Y-junction of East
View and Wyburn Avenue in Barnet, where you could easily do 30mph down
either road, but the road there is wide and devoid of parked cars, so
visibility is not a problem.

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council thinks it's
a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a (presumably private) drive
leading to the garages of a block of flats, but when you're approaching via
Appleford Rd it looks like you are on the main road crossing two side roads.
So it has probably slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of
it as a crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council
thinks it's a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a
(presumably private) drive leading to the garages of a block of
flats, but when you're approaching via Appleford Rd it looks like you
are on the main road crossing two side roads. So it has probably
slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of it as a
crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

But why does one road or the other have to have priority? I know that at
first sight it sounds perverse, but if fewer junctions had such markings
then all traffic would (apart from a few morons of course) slow down and
take care. As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right" method that
is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we had a similar "give
way to the left" rule in the UK?

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:10:00 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote this:-

As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

Although I can't comment on this location removal of excessive road
markings has been shown to slow the average speed of motor traffic.
I expect to see more of it, though it will be a low process.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:10:00 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote this:-

As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

Although I can't comment on this location removal of excessive road
markings has been shown to slow the average speed of motor traffic.
I expect to see more of it, though it will be a low process.

It will be a slow and costly process because removing road markings
completely can only be done by re-surfacing the road.

Markings can be partially removed by burning them off, or planing them
off, but both these methods make a mess of the road surface - and you
can still see where the markings were. Another unsatisfactory method
is to cover them with black road-marking material - but as it wears
away the white markings underneath soon start to show through again.

Kensington and Chelsea have a 'de-cluttering' policy which aims to
reduce road signs and markings and other street furniture such as
guardrails and bollards to the absolute minimum in order to improve
the look of the area. So long as this is coupled with good road
design it shouldn't compromise safety.

But there may be risks if things are just ripped out without
considering why they were put there in the first place.

I have little doubt it is safe to omit markings in low speed roads
with relatively light traffic. Over recent years many residential
developments have been built without road markings at junctions and
work perfectly well. If you are not sure whether you have priority
just give-way - simple (if others do this at the same time it may be
confusing for a moment but not dangerous)! Just like a
mini-roundabout really, except for the lack of 'rules'.

I wouldn't recommend this as a 'blanket' policy however - each
location needs to be looked at. Where visibility of a junction is not
so good, providing give-way lines on the minor roads; and road
centre-lines (or leaving a gap in a continuous centre-line) across a
junction on the priority road can be an effective way to show drivers
that there is something there they need to look out for. And much
cheaper than mini-roundabouts, which can also be very effective if
required but need illuminated signs in addition to the road markings.

umpston wrote:

I wouldn't recommend this as a 'blanket' policy however - each
location needs to be looked at. Where visibility of a junction is not
so good, providing give-way lines on the minor roads; and road
centre-lines (or leaving a gap in a continuous centre-line) across a
junction on the priority road can be an effective way to show drivers
that there is something there they need to look out for. And much
cheaper than mini-roundabouts, which can also be very effective if
required but need illuminated signs in addition to the road markings.

How about a simple "crossroads" sign, or whever the junction is?

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:10:00 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote this:-

As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by
vehicles parked close to the junction.

Although I can't comment on this location removal of excessive road
markings has been shown to slow the average speed of motor traffic.
I expect to see more of it, though it will be a low process.

Interesting opinion. Road markings were put there in the first place to
restrict drivers. Most road markings are there to enforce particular laws.

Now, I would have thought *I* would be much keener to get rid of them than
*you* are.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime
and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilisation in any
country." (Winston Churchill)

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:07:35 +0100 someone who may be "PeterE"
wrote this:-

Interesting opinion. Road markings were put there in the first place to
restrict drivers. Most road markings are there to enforce particular laws.

Incorrect. Most road markings are the white lines along the side of
roads and in the middle. (Most of) these do not indicate a
particular law (the major exception are solid lines in the middle of
the road), rather they are provided to allow motorists to drive
faster. The converse of removing these lines has the effect one
would expect.

Only some markings along the road indicate laws. Parking
restrictions and junctions being examples.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:07:35 +0100 someone who may be "PeterE"
wrote this:-

Interesting opinion. Road markings were put there in the first place
to restrict drivers. Most road markings are there to enforce
particular laws.

Incorrect. Most road markings are the white lines along the side of
roads and in the middle. (Most of) these do not indicate a
particular law (the major exception are solid lines in the middle of
the road), rather they are provided to allow motorists to drive
faster. The converse of removing these lines has the effect one
would expect.

Only some markings along the road indicate laws. Parking
restrictions and junctions being examples.

Relatively few roads have white lines along the side of the carriageway.
These are normally rural primary routes, where the intention is to narrow
the apparent width of the road, something I might assume you support.

Apart from dotted white centre lines, all other road lining is to encourage
adherence to road traffic law.

Personally I'd love roads without any signs or markings. I don't think you
would.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime
and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilisation in any
country." (Winston Churchill)

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote the following
in:

A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right"
method that is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we
had a similar "give way to the left" rule in the UK?

Wouldn't that just be the reverse of a mini-roundabout? If so, why not
just have a give way to the right rule so that unmarked junctions were
treated as mini-roundabouts.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net