In message , Boltar
writes
19 minutes (includes 7 mins walking time to Arnos Grove platform)

Which explains some of the frequent delays at Arnos Grove usually
northbound but sometimes south too as a full train waits for Mr Driver
to stroll down and take over from his colleague. Why they couldn't have
made cockfosters the booking on point is anyones guess.

If the booking on point was CFS, it would cause even more problems in
that service recovery would be virtually impossible after a shutdown or
other problems. Also, a number of trains are booked to reverse at AGR
as CFS couldn't cope in the peaks.

BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message ...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it actually runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience that it
completely confuses out of towners.

B2003

Boltar wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message
...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going
south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it actually
runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for
internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience
that it
completely confuses out of towners.


Nevertheless, Cockfosters is to the east of both Uxbridge and Heathrow,
therefore eastbound and westbound make more sense when considering the l;ine
as a whole. Unless you are suggesting that the description should change
with every twist and turn the railway makes?

In my experience most people not versed in internal LU terminology have no
difficulty with east/west or north/south bound since they don't know their
east from their sou'-sou'-west. They merely establish the direction they
wish to go in and follow the signs, easy innit?

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...
Boltar wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message
...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going
south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it actually
runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for
internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience
that it
completely confuses out of towners.


Nevertheless, Cockfosters is to the east of both Uxbridge and Heathrow,
therefore eastbound and westbound make more sense when considering the l;ine
as a whole. Unless you are suggesting that the description should change
with every twist and turn the railway makes?

Yes. Or would you suggest every railway in the country only uses one direction
measurement no matter how it twists and turns? Besides which north and south
bound were used for years north of kings cross.


In my experience most people not versed in internal LU terminology have no
difficulty with east/west or north/south bound since they don't know their
east from their sou'-sou'-west. They merely establish the direction they
wish to go in and follow the signs, easy innit?

Last time I took some friends around london they looked at the piccadilly line
on the map , saw it going north-south and so naturally looked for the north and
southbound signs. Imagine their pleasent surprise when they didn't find them.
NO its not easy at first if you're in a crowded station looking for a sign
saying north and only have ones saying east and west (oh , but the northern
line which goes in the same direction as the piccadilly DOES have northbound).
Theres logic for you.

B2003

Boltar wrote:
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...
Boltar wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message
...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going
south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it
actually
runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for
internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience
that it
completely confuses out of towners.


Nevertheless, Cockfosters is to the east of both Uxbridge and
Heathrow,
therefore eastbound and westbound make more sense when considering
the l;ine
as a whole. Unless you are suggesting that the description should
change
with every twist and turn the railway makes?

Yes. Or would you suggest every railway in the country only uses one
direction
measurement no matter how it twists and turns? Besides which north
and south
bound were used for years north of kings cross.


In my experience most people not versed in internal LU terminology
have no
difficulty with east/west or north/south bound since they don't know
their
east from their sou'-sou'-west. They merely establish the direction
they
wish to go in and follow the signs, easy innit?

Last time I took some friends around london they looked at the
piccadilly line
on the map , saw it going north-south and so naturally looked for the
north and
southbound signs. Imagine their pleasent surprise when they didn't
find them.
NO its not easy at first if you're in a crowded station looking for a
sign
saying north and only have ones saying east and west (oh , but the
northern
line which goes in the same direction as the piccadilly DOES have
northbound).
Theres logic for you.


OK the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Cockfosters is relabelled North
and South. What about the rest of the line? What about the Jubillee or the
Bakerloo lines, how would you label them?

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...
OK the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Cockfosters is relabelled North
and South. What about the rest of the line? What about the Jubillee or the
Bakerloo lines, how would you label them?

You label them in whatever direction they're going at that station according
to the map. You don't show it going north on a map then write "westbound" on
all the station signs. Or better yet do what other systems do and label them by
their end stations. Eg towards cockfosters or towards heathrow/uxbridge. This
was also done on the underground years ago. Not sure if it still is these days.

B2003

On 1 Sep 2004, Boltar wrote:

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...

OK the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Cockfosters is relabelled
North and South. What about the rest of the line? What about the
Jubillee or the Bakerloo lines, how would you label them?

You label them in whatever direction they're going at that station
according to the map. You don't show it going north on a map then write
"westbound" on all the station signs.

There's also the issue of direction on the map vs direction on the ground,
which aren't always the same; the former corresponds to passengers' mental
model of the network, but it's also subject to change.

Or better yet do what other systems do and label them by their end
stations. Eg towards cockfosters or towards heathrow/uxbridge. This was
also done on the underground years ago. Not sure if it still is these
days.

I find labelling by terminus completely unhelpful - unless you know the
network well enough to know the terminus of every line (which most
Londoners probably do, but visitors certainly don't), it means you need a
map to interpret the signs. And how would it work on lines that branch?
"Towards Edgware, High Barnet and Mill Hill East" is a bit of a mouthful.
How would it work on the circle line? I think Liverpool Street would not
be improved by a platform called "Towards Hammersmith, Uxbridge, Amersham,
Chesham (sometimes), Watford and Liverpool Street (via Baker Street before
Tower Hill)".

I think this is a matter of taste: i like the system where each direction
has one consistent name over the whole line. Some of the problems with
this could be overcome by using 'fractional' compass points: the Picc, for
example, could have North-East and South-West directions (although in the
case of Uxbridge etc, this would be some new meaning of the term
'south-west' of which most people were previously not aware). Don't ask me
how you'd name the Jubilee.

Oh, and the Circle line directions should be Clockwise and Anti-Clockwise.
This is not an opinion - this is a fact, proven by science.

Perhaps (and this is not an entirely serious suggestion) we just need to
pick a pair of names which don't have any specific geographical
connotation and use those consistently along the whole line: Up and Down
come close, are nicely traditional, but can't really be applied inside
London; i suggest Ana and Kata, these being the traditional extra
directions in maths.

Hmm. It would be nice if, wherever two lines shared a platform or had
crossplatform or otherwise parallel interchange, their directions were
coherent (ie at Finsbury Park, Victoria ana and Piccadilly ana were next
to each other). Apart from the circle line (and ignoring Woodford and
Heathrow), would the network support that? Let's see - we can start with
the Metropolitan, declare it to have its kata end at Aldgate, then walk
along and transfer the direction to the lines it runs along with (my
notation is line: kata end (determining line @ interchange
station)):

Met: Aldgate
Picc: Cockfosters (Met @ Rayners Lane)
Jubilee: Stratford (Met @ Wembley Park)
H&C: Barking (Met @ Baker Street)
District: Upminster (Picc @ Ealing Common)
Victoria: Walthamstow (Picc @ Finsbury Park)
Central: Epping (District @ Ealing Broadway)
Bakerloo: Elephant & Castle (Met @ Baker Street - weak)
Northern: Morden (Bakerloo @ Embankment - weak)
W&C: Waterloo (Northern @ Bank - weak)
ELL: has no parallel interchanges
DLR: incoherent (District @ Bank vs Central @ Stratford)
NLL: incoherent (District @ Richmond vs Jubilee @ West Ham)

Have i missed any interchanges in the centre of town? The map doesn't show
any as parallel, but they might be in reality. Anyway, basically, it
works, with 'kata' more or less meaning 'east' - the Northern line is the
only major exception. Funny how all the lines with branches have them at
the ana end.

tom

--
OK, mostly because of Tom, but not only because of his bloody irritating character and songs.

(Boltar) wrote in message . com...
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message ...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it actually runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience that it
completely confuses out of towners.

B2003

Why would out-of-towners want to go to Cockfosters?

(James) wrote in message . com...
(Boltar) wrote in message . com...
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in message ...
BTW, we don't run north or south, but east to west, I assume you're
referring to the eastbound?

I use real directions , not LU directions. Calling the line going south
from Cockfosters "westbound" is utterly absurd given that it actually runs
southeast to oakwood and south from there! It may be consistent for internal
LU uses to just use east-west but I know from personal experience that it
completely confuses out of towners.

B2003

Why would out-of-towners want to go to Cockfosters?

Middlesex polytechnic .. sorry I mean university.

B2003

"Boltar" wrote in message
om...

Why would out-of-towners want to go to Cockfosters?

Middlesex polytechnic .. sorry I mean university.

That's in Oakwood!

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes