Neil Williams schrieb:
I always thought the U-Bahn screens were a nice touch, because when
the next stop is displayed, a picture of the station or its
Hmm, yes, thats true. It will also show the possible interchanges when
the next stop is an interchange.

visible all the time - but it's more than was provided on the older
U-Bahn stock (is any of that still in service?) and it's more than is
The older U-Bahn stock is still in service, sure, on the U3 line mostly.
It still has doors that need to be opened manually (and i mean manually,
using your muscles to push it open). Most of them are refurbished,
including a digital voice announcer but excluding a display.
Unrefurbished stock has drivers announcing stops.
New stock has said TV screens and a digital announcer that is actually
loud enough.
95% of buses have a small display showing the name of the next stop. A
few buses now also have a digital announcer.

provided on most UK underground/metro stock.
I found riding buses in London to be quite difficult because information
is not very complete. But the underground network is cool.

[1] That said, bus stops in Germany are typically *much* further apart
than they typically are in the UK - certainly in Hamburg.
Yes, thats true, 500m and more. Also each and every bus stop has an own
name and there is a full timetable for every bus and train in Hamburg.
Just ask the journey planner at http://www.geofox.de/ which works very well.

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:01:16 +0200, Gunnar Thöle
wrote:
[1] That said, bus stops in Germany are typically *much* further apart
than they typically are in the UK - certainly in Hamburg.
Yes, thats true, 500m and more. Also each and every bus stop has an own
name and there is a full timetable for every bus and train in Hamburg.
Just ask the journey planner at http://www.geofox.de/ which works very well.

Almost as good as London's www.journeyplanner.org :-)

Richard.

Gunnar Thöle wrote:

Neil Williams schrieb:

I always thought the U-Bahn screens were a nice touch, because when
the next stop is displayed, a picture of the station or its

Hmm, yes, thats true. It will also show the possible interchanges when
the next stop is an interchange.

visible all the time - but it's more than was provided on the older
U-Bahn stock (is any of that still in service?) and it's more than is

The older U-Bahn stock is still in service, sure, on the U3 line mostly.
It still has doors that need to be opened manually (and i mean manually,
using your muscles to push it open). Most of them are refurbished,
including a digital voice announcer but excluding a display.
Unrefurbished stock has drivers announcing stops.
New stock has said TV screens and a digital announcer that is actually
loud enough.
95% of buses have a small display showing the name of the next stop. A
few buses now also have a digital announcer.

provided on most UK underground/metro stock.

I found riding buses in London to be quite difficult because information
is not very complete. But the underground network is cool.

That's interesting. What don't you consider complete about the
information? In my (probably more limited) experience, London has the
most comprehensive bus information of anywhere I have ever been. For
example: the spider maps (although I know John dislikes them :-) ).

[1] That said, bus stops in Germany are typically *much* further apart
than they typically are in the UK - certainly in Hamburg.

Yes, thats true, 500m and more. Also each and every bus stop has an own
name and there is a full timetable for every bus and train in Hamburg.
Just ask the journey planner at http://www.geofox.de/ which works very
well.

All London bus stops also have a unique name (or a letter at important
locations), which can be used in conjunction with spider maps and with
online information (www.journeyplanner.org). The WAP version of TfL's
site also extremely comprehensive and valuable information.

All they need now is to get Countdown (bus stop arrivals info) working
better!!

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:58:25 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

That's interesting. What don't you consider complete about the
information? In my (probably more limited) experience, London has the
most comprehensive bus information of anywhere I have ever been. For
example: the spider maps (although I know John dislikes them :-) ).

I must say I like the spider maps, personally - they are useful in the
context of somewhere like London, where it is difficult to provide a
full network map as there are simply too many routes.

Milton Keynes Council used to provide a full network map which was a
cross between a street map and a Tube-style diagrammatic map - these
were an excellent idea for somewhere smaller, and I don't understand
why you don't see them any more (they are still produced and included
in the back of the full timetable book).

The main thing I feel is missing from buses throughout the country,
including London (or maybe *especially* London where visitors are
probably more likely to use the bus than elsewhere) is on-board
information.

As a minimum, all buses should have a large-font LED-style display
mounted at roof height at the front (one upstairs and one downstairs
on a decker) displaying the name of the next stop. Ideally, there
would also be an automatic announcer (though obviously with the number
of stops in London this would take longer to implement), and certainly
a public address system so the driver can speak to all passengers
(e.g. to advise that the bus is terminating early). None of this
would be exceptionally expensive to implement, and to someone using an
unfamiliar route would be very useful indeed.

I'd argue that the above is vastly more deserving of investment than
Countdown displays and their ilk.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Neil Williams wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 4 Sep 2004:

The main thing I feel is missing from buses throughout the country,
including London (or maybe *especially* London where visitors are
probably more likely to use the bus than elsewhere) is on-board
information.

We used to have this - it was called "the conductor"..... Sigh....

As a minimum, all buses should have a large-font LED-style display
mounted at roof height at the front (one upstairs and one downstairs
on a decker) displaying the name of the next stop. Ideally, there
would also be an automatic announcer (though obviously with the number
of stops in London this would take longer to implement), and certainly
a public address system so the driver can speak to all passengers
(e.g. to advise that the bus is terminating early). None of this
would be exceptionally expensive to implement, and to someone using an
unfamiliar route would be very useful indeed.

They do have PA on many buses. But I agree, I wish we had more on-board
information - couldn't it somehow be linked with Countdown, or with
whatever is due to replace Countdown in the near future?

I'd argue that the above is vastly more deserving of investment than
Countdown displays and their ilk.

They are very useful, though - you know whether it's worth waiting, or
whether it would be quicker, as well as healthier, to walk. For idle
sods like me, that is good to know!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/

Dave Arquati schrieb:

I found riding buses in London to be quite difficult because
information is not very complete. But the underground network is cool.


That's interesting. What don't you consider complete about the
information? In my (probably more limited) experience, London has the
Mainly its the onboard information i found missing. Travelling to
Crystal Palace on a bus i was constantly looking outside for some
building that might be a palace... Whereas i would have preferred to
drowse and just glimpse at some kind of in-bus display once in a while...
Also i would have liked a map with all bus lines on them (yes, this
would have to be very very huge). My Hamburg town map shows bus lines,
for example. Does an A-Z show bus lines?

most comprehensive bus information of anywhere I have ever been. For
example: the spider maps (although I know John dislikes them :-) ).
Yeah, its quite comprehensive, Hamburg surely isn't better than London
in this regard. But IMHO its not perfect. Problem: I don't know how
offboard information (at the stop) could be made much better.

What i found very good was the Countdown system. Hamburg is just now
starting to install something similar.

online information (www.journeyplanner.org). The WAP version of TfL's
site also extremely comprehensive and valuable information.
Yes, WAP is cool. I got a flat tariff for WAP now (5 Euro per month for
unlimited WAP) and this changed my journey habits very much. I use
http://mobile.bahn.de/ as my journey planner for everywhere now, it
knows all Hamburg transport systems, most of germany, and it will even
tell me London rail timetables. This is so useful.
And for getting to stations http://pda.mappy.com/ shows me the way
everywhere...

Gunnar

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:39:34 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote:

We used to have this - it was called "the conductor"..... Sigh....

Many moons ago, the conductor may well have called the name of all
stops out. I haven't seen one do this at all in recent years of
Routemaster use in London.

They do have PA on many buses.

Never heard it used on any bus in London that I can recall. I suspect
there's some silly law about not using it on the move, though.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:39:34 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote:


We used to have this - it was called "the conductor"..... Sigh....


Many moons ago, the conductor may well have called the name of all
stops out. I haven't seen one do this at all in recent years of
Routemaster use in London.


They do have PA on many buses.


Never heard it used on any bus in London that I can recall.

The only time I ever discovered they actually had PAs on the buses was
on the N73 one night, when I was rudely awoken at Walthamstow Central
with the driver announcing "This bus terminates here!".

I was asleep on the luggage rack (the bus was full when I got on it!),
and the only person left on the bus, so why he didn't just turn round
and shout at me I don't know. :-)

"The good thing about living at the end of the line is that it's much
more difficult to miss your stop."

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:55:10 +0100, Dave Newt
newtonline{at}gmail.com wrote:

"The good thing about living at the end of the line is that it's much
more difficult to miss your stop."

Maybe. However, one evening (morning?), boarding the 0130 Manchester
Airport-Liverpool Lime St train at the Airport, I noticed a man asleep
in one of the seats. I told the guard, who came and had a look,
shouted to him (he didn't wake up - probably alcohol) then gave up and
decided to leave him be. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he
returned on the 04something off Liverpool, and possibly remained
longer than that.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Neil Williams wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 5 Sep 2004:

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:39:34 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote:

We used to have this - it was called "the conductor"..... Sigh....

Many moons ago, the conductor may well have called the name of all
stops out. I haven't seen one do this at all in recent years of
Routemaster use in London.

Depends on the conductor. Even today, you get the occasional one who
calls out the names of the stops, especially if they've been asked to
put someone off at a given stop.

They do have PA on many buses.

Never heard it used on any bus in London that I can recall. I suspect
there's some silly law about not using it on the move, though.

I've heard it used - and it was on the news last time there was a Tube
strike, with that bus driver who informed her passengers that the should
stop ringing the bell; she would open the door when it was safe to do
so.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/