Hi,

Bought a saver return ticket to Putney yesterday. Was told the usual stuff
"Platform 2 for the fast trains to London once you get to Peterborough...
theres no engineering works today or tomorrow"

Travelled there via Peterborough, KX & Vauxhall

Coming back today I got to Putney station to find it closed due to "planned
engineering works". The replacement bus was heaving and couldn't take
everyone + I had heard the district line was closed somewhere. Not wanting
to risk walking to East Putney and it be closed, I decided to pay to go on a
number 14 bus to South Kensington and then get the piccidilly line to KX. I
wasn't too bothered about the bus fare + extra time taken and assumed that
since my ticket would have been valid for a train + a tube to get to KX it
must be valid from South Kensington to KX.

Got to SK and checked with a member of staff who said he didn't think so
because my ticket is only valid between the two stations. Said I was on my
way to the destination but the origination station was closed but he was
adamant that the + didn't mean anything and called a colleague over. He
said "oh why not" and let me in.

What should officially have happened? + I would rather not be made to feel
(as a paying customer) that I am being let on as a favour.

Chris

Chris wrote:
Hi,

Bought a saver return ticket to Putney yesterday. Was told the usual stuff
"Platform 2 for the fast trains to London once you get to Peterborough...
theres no engineering works today or tomorrow"

Travelled there via Peterborough, KX & Vauxhall

Coming back today I got to Putney station to find it closed due to "planned
engineering works". The replacement bus was heaving and couldn't take
everyone + I had heard the district line was closed somewhere. Not wanting
to risk walking to East Putney and it be closed, I decided to pay to go on a
number 14 bus to South Kensington and then get the piccidilly line to KX. I
wasn't too bothered about the bus fare + extra time taken and assumed that
since my ticket would have been valid for a train + a tube to get to KX it
must be valid from South Kensington to KX.

Got to SK and checked with a member of staff who said he didn't think so
because my ticket is only valid between the two stations. Said I was on my
way to the destination but the origination station was closed but he was
adamant that the + didn't mean anything and called a colleague over. He
said "oh why not" and let me in.

What should officially have happened? + I would rather not be made to feel
(as a paying customer) that I am being let on as a favour.

Chris

I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross. The fare for whereever you started to Putney will be different to
the fare to East Putney - the latter fare will be more expensive as it
will be the cost of a return to King's Cross plus a Zone 1&2 return on
the Underground (£4.40).

I think the cross-London transfer is a "courtesy" provided by London
Underground to the train operators; it's not priced the same as tube
journeys. Hence you can get a cheaper ticket travelling from a train
station to another train station than to a tube station, even if the
latter stations are within the immediate vicinity of each other (e.g.
East Putney and Putney, or South Hampstead and Swiss Cottage). I'm not
sure how it works for joint NR/LU stations.

I think officially, you should have had to pay for a tube fare to King's
Cross at £2.00. I know it sounds stupid as you were avoiding engineering
work, but the railways are full of ticket oddities.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross.


Putney - Train/tube connection - KX - Peterborough - Local station
was the intended and valid route and I would have gotten the replacement bus
from Putney if they were more frequent and not full

Presumably I could miss out the Putney-Train/tube connection part and it
would have been valid from e.g. Vauxhall or Victoria (or West Brompton?) to
Kings Cross on the tube. If so, why not from South Kensington to KX?
Chris

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Chris wrote:

I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross.

Putney - Train/tube connection - KX - Peterborough - Local station
was the intended and valid route and I would have gotten the replacement bus
from Putney if they were more frequent and not full

My understanding from what I've read here is that the + entitles the
holder to enter and leave LUL only at specific defined interchange
stations; *not* at any tube station of their own choosing.

But when everything's gone pear-shaped, I would have thought you could
ask permission to do something constructive. Maybe even get some kind
of endorsement, to show that you'd asked.

One of the unpleasant things about PT is that passenger initiative in
helping to solve problems seems to be unwelcome. One is supposed to
put oneself into the hands of the system, and await whatever befalls.
It's no wonder that so many folks prefer private car.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 22:51:12 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:
I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross. The fare for whereever you started to Putney will be different to
the fare to East Putney - the latter fare will be more expensive as it
will be the cost of a return to King's Cross plus a Zone 1&2 return on
the Underground (£4.40).

It's valid at the usual terminal stations and: Aldgate, Amersham,
Baker Street, Balham, Bank, Barking, Blackhorse Road, Canning Town,
Ealing Broadway, Edgware Road, Elephant and Castle, Embankment, Euston
Square, Farringdon, Finsbury Park, Greenwich, Highbury and Islington,
Kensington Olympia, Kentish Town, Lewisham, Limehouse, Moorgate, Old
Street, Queens Park, Richmond, Seven Sisters, Southwark, Stratford,
Tottenham Hale, Tower Hill, Upminster, Vauxhall, Walthamstow Central,
West Brompton, West Ham, West Hampstead and Wimbledon - *appropriate
to the route of the through rail journey being made* (info from the
National Fares Manual).

I think the cross-London transfer is a "courtesy" provided by London
Underground to the train operators; it's not priced the same as tube
journeys.

Not really a courtesy... just that the cost is worked out differently.

Richard.

Chris wrote:
I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross.



Putney - Train/tube connection - KX - Peterborough - Local station
was the intended and valid route and I would have gotten the replacement bus
from Putney if they were more frequent and not full

Presumably I could miss out the Putney-Train/tube connection part and it
would have been valid from e.g. Vauxhall or Victoria (or West Brompton?) to
Kings Cross on the tube. If so, why not from South Kensington to KX?
Chris

The "+" routing only allows you connections between National Rail
stations - Richard has posted the official list in a separate reply. So
yes, it would have been valid from Vauxhall or Victoria (and indeed West
Brompton!). Unfortunately it's not valid from South Kensington - so if
you had caught a 74 from Putney to West Brompton and continued your
journey from there, you would have been fine.

These rules can be pretty stupid sometimes! (I wonder why they don't
include a clause allowing appropriate diversionary routes for
engineering works, particular in London - or just inform LU as appropriate).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Chris wrote:
I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross.

These rules can be pretty stupid sometimes! (I wonder why they don't
include a clause allowing appropriate diversionary routes for
engineering works, particular in London - or just inform LU as
appropriate).

Even better, '+' should be worth a trip between the appropriate National
Rail stations by any reasonable combination of LT services, be they tube
trains, buses or trams. This would probably be impossible with the current
ticket barriers, though - TfL would need to move to the transfer-style
system used in the rest of the civilised world.

tom

--
Gin makes a man mean; let's booze up and riot!

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Chris wrote:

I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross.

These rules can be pretty stupid sometimes! (I wonder why they don't
include a clause allowing appropriate diversionary routes for
engineering works, particular in London - or just inform LU as
appropriate).


Even better, '+' should be worth a trip between the appropriate National
Rail stations by any reasonable combination of LT services, be they tube
trains, buses or trams. This would probably be impossible with the current
ticket barriers, though - TfL would need to move to the transfer-style
system used in the rest of the civilised world.

tom

A smartcard system for National Rail + TfL would solve the problem - but
it would take a *lot* of programming! TfL might be able to introduce
something useful if they roll out Oyster to London's overground rail
network. I heard mumblings about reduced fares for combined journeys,
e.g. tube + bus. A similar reduced fare might be applied to rail + bus.

Unfortunately letting anyone use any "reasonable combination" of
services means a headache for bus drivers as they try to work out
whether the person boarding their bus is making a reasonable journey on
their "+" rail ticket or whether they are taking advantage of the system
by breaking their journey and using the rail ticket like a travelcard or
bus pass - thus losing TfL money.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , (Dave Arquati)
wrote:

I think that whilst "+" does mean valid for a cross-London transfer, it
*doesn't* mean that it is valid for any tube journey to get to King's
Cross. The fare for whereever you started to Putney will be different
to the fare to East Putney - the latter fare will be more expensive as
it will be the cost of a return to King's Cross plus a Zone 1&2 return
on the Underground (£4.40).

Actually IME the converse is the case. From Cambridge, staying in Putney
overnight, I now have to pay significantly more to go to Putney (SWT) than
to East Putney (LU) on a Network Awaybreak. :-(

But my understanding of the + cross-London link symbol is that it only
allows travel between LUL stations nearest to main line stations. I
couldn't even board a train at Goodge St but had to go back to Euston.

--
Colin Rosenstiel