On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:58:36 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:00:46 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

In another place a MD of one company that uses bendy buses in London
said very clearly that they had big advantages compared to say Hong Kong
style 12m double decks. One of big issues was over dwell time at stops -
particularly in busy places like Oxford Street where bus stop capacity /
occupancy is a key issue. While I understand the point he made I am not
100% convinced as big buses work in Hong Kong although given the very
high frequencies it is not uncommon to have for buses to queue to get
onto a stop.

The dwell-time problem is very obvious on a route like the 42 in
Manchester. Stagecoach operate (or did operate, they may now have
gone to Megabus) some very large ex-Hong Kong double-deckers on their
Magic Bus services. These were single-doored (not only that, but the
single door was very narrow), and so dwell times at stops were
measured in minutes rather than seconds, exacerbated by the need to
take fares on board. The loadings and typical short journeys mean
this route is crying out for cashless bendy operation (though you'd
need very good revenue protection!)

I imagine the student populace on that route would love cashless / free
buses :-)

That said, long deckers *can* be operated on the European model - the
best style I've seen is Berlin's, where boarding is via the front door
and alighting via the rear - but with the rear door all the way to the
back and two staircases. These seem to manage a speed of operation
not dissimilar to a 3-doored bendy.

Yes that is an alternative and I see Berlin are buying a brand new
generation of such double deckers with deliveries in 2005.

I don't think I'd go for a bendy decker, though. Large deckers work
better as 12m rigid vehicles, though these may be too long for
London's narrow streets.

People keep saying this and then fail to note that we have loads and
loads of former HK 12m double deck buses happily plying their trade on
sightseeing work and going down really narrow streets that normal bus
routes don't serve.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:58:36 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

The dwell-time problem is very obvious on a route like the 42 in
Manchester. Stagecoach operate (or did operate, they may now have
gone to Megabus) some very large ex-Hong Kong double-deckers on their
Magic Bus services. These were single-doored (not only that, but the
single door was very narrow), and so dwell times at stops were
measured in minutes rather than seconds, exacerbated by the need to
take fares on board. The loadings and typical short journeys mean
this route is crying out for cashless bendy operation (though you'd
need very good revenue protection!)

Don't forget the inordinate amount of time taken to issue the bloody
Megarider tickets....
--

ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø
Please reply to the group
Replies to this address will bounce!
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:38:27 +0100, Cheeky wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:58:36 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

The dwell-time problem is very obvious on a route like the 42 in
Manchester. Stagecoach operate (or did operate, they may now have
gone to Megabus) some very large ex-Hong Kong double-deckers on their
Magic Bus services. These were single-doored (not only that, but the
single door was very narrow), and so dwell times at stops were
measured in minutes rather than seconds, exacerbated by the need to
take fares on board. The loadings and typical short journeys mean
this route is crying out for cashless bendy operation (though you'd
need very good revenue protection!)

Don't forget the inordinate amount of time taken to issue the bloody
Megarider tickets....


Sounds like a case for Roadside Ticket Machines....

Rob,
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:13:28 +0100, Robert Woolley
wrote:

Sounds like a case for Roadside Ticket Machines....

Indeed. The trouble is that there are 5 or more companies competing
over the route - who would get the revenue?

Sounds like a case for re-regulation, bendies, a single operator, full
off-bus ticketing and rigorous inspections with a realistic[1] penalty
fare. Or IOW, exactly what happens on route 102[2] in Hamburg, which
is very similar (city-university-halls), but operated properly.

[1] £30 at least. Why should someone dodging a bus fare be fined less
than someone dodging a parking charge of a similar price?

[2] Now MetroBus something-or-other - but I remember it as the 102.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

(Neil Williams) wrote in message ...
London's narrow streets. They're not the longest buses in Germany,
mind - Hamburg has a few 16m *rigid* Citaros with steering rear axles
- FirstGroup brought one over a while ago for a test, though they're
still not legal in this country.

Is there a web page with info about these?

B2003

On 13 Sep 2004 04:06:06 -0700, (Boltar) wrote:

Is there a web page with info about these?

I don't know of one, I'm afraid. Google may think otherwise,
however...

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

On 13 Sep 2004 04:06:06 -0700, (Boltar) wrote:

(Neil Williams) wrote in message ...
London's narrow streets. They're not the longest buses in Germany,
mind - Hamburg has a few 16m *rigid* Citaros with steering rear axles
- FirstGroup brought one over a while ago for a test, though they're
still not legal in this country.

Is there a web page with info about these?

http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/210304.htm has a little bit
of info and a couple of pictures.

http://www.jasper.de/ie/frame_alert.htm and click on Airport Express.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Adrian wrote:

Marc Brett ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Bring back the double deckers!

Let's compromise... double-decker bendies, anyone?

...with all of the doors removed so it's still hop-on/hop-off?

A routebender? A bendymaster?

Routemonster?

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 10 Sep 2004 08:14:46 -0700, (Boltar) wrote:
(Mait001) wrote...
Interesting alternative viewpoint re. the bendies.

Don't think the majority would agree with you though, somehow I think
most people will continue to lament the passing of the Routemasters by
the products of the devil's engineering works.......A double decker
bus journey across London will *always* be preferable to any single
decker cattle truck (bendy or otherwise).

Bring back the double deckers!


I wholeheartedly agree.

Marc.

I can't see any reason why there couldn't be double decked bendy buses
albeit the front section of the bus only (as I suspect though you could
articulate 2 decks it would be a bit hairy engineering wise).

There have been double deck bendy coaches produced by Neoplan for long
distance touring type holidays.

The Jumbocruisers?

I think the main issue about double deck bendies would be that dwell
time at stops and termini would be much longer than with normal double
decks or single deck bendies. You then need far more vehicles to
maintain a given frequency or else the route has to become less
frequent.

As far as TfL routes go, you're probably right, but they should be OK
for the longer distance commuter bus routes into London. The cost of the
vehicles is probably the biggest drawback.

This is already the case to a limited extent with the bendy
bus conversions relative to double deck operation but that is more to do
with the fact that the same capacity can be provided with fewer buses
while not incurring longer dwell times. Part of TfL policy is to crush
more people into buses during the peaks as expansion of peak capacity
cannot really be afforded.

Of course it can be afforded - just keep the Routemasters running in
addition to the new buses.

In another place a MD of one company that uses bendy buses in London
said very clearly that they had big advantages compared to say Hong Kong
style 12m double decks. One of big issues was over dwell time at stops -
particularly in busy places like Oxford Street where bus stop capacity /
occupancy is a key issue. While I understand the point he made I am not
100% convinced as big buses work in Hong Kong although given the very
high frequencies it is not uncommon to have for buses to queue to get
onto a stop.

Do the current double deckers let you board at all doors?

My friend Simon was inspired to write this song by bendy busses

'Bendi-fear' is spreading through the capital
as people Wake Up To The Dangers of these flame-prone vehicles and start
thinking of other ways to get to work.

Shamelessly playing on these misgivings, here's my latest topical tribute
song. The video will feature Mr Keith Flint dancing in a threatening way in
Stockwell Bus Garage, hanging mockingly from the back platform of a
Routemaster ("RM") as London whizzes by all speeded up behind him, or
silhouetted repeatedly against the flames of another burning bendi.

I'm the siren starter, fckin' blaze creator.
I'm the safety scandal, danger-illustrator.

(hey!)
engine trying to start
engine trying to start

I'm a firestarter, bendi firestarter.
You're the scared commuter, you'll get home much later.
I'm a firestarter, bendi firestarter.

I'm the bus you hated, RM-infatuated.
Yeah. I'm the smoke you tasted, plastic-seat-related.

(hey!)
engine trying to start
engine trying to start

I'm a firestarter, bendi firestarter.
You're the cycle-buyer, back-street route collator.

I'm the self-inflicted diesel detonator.
Yeah. I'm the heat reflected, twisted metal-maker.

(hey!)
engine trying to start
engine trying to start

I'm a firestarter, bendi firestarter.
You're the train preferrer, work-at-home converter.
I'm a firestarter, bendi firestarter... starter... starter...
Starter...

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message ...
Paul Corfield wrote:
On 10 Sep 2004 08:14:46 -0700, (Boltar) wrote:
(Mait001) wrote...
Interesting alternative viewpoint re. the bendies.

Don't think the majority would agree with you though, somehow I think
most people will continue to lament the passing of the Routemasters by
the products of the devil's engineering works.......A double decker
bus journey across London will *always* be preferable to any single
decker cattle truck (bendy or otherwise).

Bring back the double deckers!


I wholeheartedly agree.

Marc.

I can't see any reason why there couldn't be double decked bendy buses
albeit the front section of the bus only (as I suspect though you could
articulate 2 decks it would be a bit hairy engineering wise).

There have been double deck bendy coaches produced by Neoplan for long
distance touring type holidays.

The Jumbocruisers?

I think the main issue about double deck bendies would be that dwell
time at stops and termini would be much longer than with normal double
decks or single deck bendies. You then need far more vehicles to
maintain a given frequency or else the route has to become less
frequent.

As far as TfL routes go, you're probably right, but they should be OK
for the longer distance commuter bus routes into London. The cost of the
vehicles is probably the biggest drawback.

This is already the case to a limited extent with the bendy
bus conversions relative to double deck operation but that is more to do
with the fact that the same capacity can be provided with fewer buses
while not incurring longer dwell times. Part of TfL policy is to crush
more people into buses during the peaks as expansion of peak capacity
cannot really be afforded.

Of course it can be afforded - just keep the Routemasters running in
addition to the new buses.

In another place a MD of one company that uses bendy buses in London
said very clearly that they had big advantages compared to say Hong Kong
style 12m double decks. One of big issues was over dwell time at stops -
particularly in busy places like Oxford Street where bus stop capacity /
occupancy is a key issue. While I understand the point he made I am not
100% convinced as big buses work in Hong Kong although given the very
high frequencies it is not uncommon to have for buses to queue to get
onto a stop.

Do the current double deckers let you board at all doors?