On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


Has anyone an earlier date than 1900 for the use of the expression
'the tube'?
I believe the 'Daily Mail' referred to the 'Two-penny Tube' on 4
August 1900; but was the Underground called 'the tube' before then?

You have to remember that "tube" is descriptive of the tunneling
method used for the deep lines, as opposed to the shallow
cut-and-cover of the early District/Metropolitan. Since the first
real "tube" was the City & South London Railway between Borough and
King William Street opening 18/12/1890, there's not going to be any
reference much earlier than that. The "Two-Penny Tube" was
specifically the Central London Railway which opened 30/07/00 (between
Shepherd's Bush and Bank), reflecting their flat-rate fare structure
that was an early marketing ploy, but it would have had to rely on
"tube" being a existing recognised nomenclature.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


Has anyone an earlier date than 1900 for the use of the expression
'the tube'?
I believe the 'Daily Mail' referred to the 'Two-penny Tube' on 4
August 1900; but was the Underground called 'the tube' before then?

You have to remember that "tube" is descriptive of the tunneling
method used for the deep lines, as opposed to the shallow
cut-and-cover of the early District/Metropolitan. Since the first
real "tube" was the City & South London Railway between Borough and
King William Street opening 18/12/1890, there's not going to be any
reference much earlier than that. The "Two-Penny Tube" was
specifically the Central London Railway which opened 30/07/00 (between
Shepherd's Bush and Bank), reflecting their flat-rate fare structure
that was an early marketing ploy, but it would have had to rely on
"tube" being a existing recognised nomenclature.

Have you evidence of that last claim? All I'm aware of is that the
soubriquet "twopenny tube" was coined by a newspaper referring to the CSLR
(now the Central Line). I am not aware of evidence that there was any
previous usage of the term "tube".

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:03 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


Has anyone an earlier date than 1900 for the use of the expression
'the tube'?
I believe the 'Daily Mail' referred to the 'Two-penny Tube' on 4
August 1900; but was the Underground called 'the tube' before then?

You have to remember that "tube" is descriptive of the tunneling
method used for the deep lines, as opposed to the shallow
cut-and-cover of the early District/Metropolitan. Since the first
real "tube" was the City & South London Railway between Borough and
King William Street opening 18/12/1890, there's not going to be any
reference much earlier than that. The "Two-Penny Tube" was
specifically the Central London Railway which opened 30/07/00 (between
Shepherd's Bush and Bank), reflecting their flat-rate fare structure
that was an early marketing ploy, but it would have had to rely on
"tube" being a existing recognised nomenclature.

Have you evidence of that last claim? All I'm aware of is that the
soubriquet "twopenny tube" was coined by a newspaper referring to the CSLR
(now the Central Line). I am not aware of evidence that there was any
previous usage of the term "tube".

Well, it's self-evident that the meaning of the term "tube" would have
to be at least vaguely familiar for calling the CLR (not the CSLR) the
"twopenny tube" to work. Logically, nobody would coin a phrase like
"twopenny tube" if they would then need to explain what a "tube" (in
that context) was. As a comparison, Dyson vacuum cleaners are _now_
marketed as, "The most powerful cyclone cylinder cleaner in the
world"; they weren't at first because nobody would have known what a
"cyclone cylinder cleaner" was!
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:03 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


Has anyone an earlier date than 1900 for the use of the expression
'the tube'?
I believe the 'Daily Mail' referred to the 'Two-penny Tube' on 4
August 1900; but was the Underground called 'the tube' before then?

You have to remember that "tube" is descriptive of the tunneling
method used for the deep lines, as opposed to the shallow
cut-and-cover of the early District/Metropolitan. Since the first
real "tube" was the City & South London Railway between Borough and
King William Street opening 18/12/1890, there's not going to be any
reference much earlier than that. The "Two-Penny Tube" was
specifically the Central London Railway which opened 30/07/00 (between
Shepherd's Bush and Bank), reflecting their flat-rate fare structure
that was an early marketing ploy, but it would have had to rely on
"tube" being a existing recognised nomenclature.

Have you evidence of that last claim? All I'm aware of is that the
soubriquet "twopenny tube" was coined by a newspaper referring to the CSLR
(now the Central Line). I am not aware of evidence that there was any
previous usage of the term "tube".

Well, it's self-evident that the meaning of the term "tube" would have
to be at least vaguely familiar for calling the CLR (not the CSLR) the
"twopenny tube" to work. Logically, nobody would coin a phrase like
"twopenny tube" if they would then need to explain what a "tube" (in
that context) was. As a comparison, Dyson vacuum cleaners are _now_
marketed as, "The most powerful cyclone cylinder cleaner in the
world"; they weren't at first because nobody would have known what a
"cyclone cylinder cleaner" was!
--

The terms "tuppenny" and "tube" were both words in common usage at the time.
When it was explained that the flat fare to travel the whole line was
tuppence ("two pence" to the metricated amongst us) and that it ran through
an iron pipe or tube I doubt the vast majority of people would have had
difficulty understanding the concept.

It could even be the case that the name was already known to someone on the
staff of the newspaper and transferred to the CLR since there is an alley in
Malmsbury, Wilts known as "Tuppenny Tube".
http://www.yourguide.org.uk/malmesbury/mwalk.html
http://www.malmesbury-memories.co.uk/tuptube.html

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:05 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:


"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:03 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


Has anyone an earlier date than 1900 for the use of the expression
'the tube'?
I believe the 'Daily Mail' referred to the 'Two-penny Tube' on 4
August 1900; but was the Underground called 'the tube' before then?

You have to remember that "tube" is descriptive of the tunneling
method used for the deep lines, as opposed to the shallow
cut-and-cover of the early District/Metropolitan. Since the first
real "tube" was the City & South London Railway between Borough and
King William Street opening 18/12/1890, there's not going to be any
reference much earlier than that. The "Two-Penny Tube" was
specifically the Central London Railway which opened 30/07/00 (between
Shepherd's Bush and Bank), reflecting their flat-rate fare structure
that was an early marketing ploy, but it would have had to rely on
"tube" being a existing recognised nomenclature.

Have you evidence of that last claim? All I'm aware of is that the
soubriquet "twopenny tube" was coined by a newspaper referring to the CSLR
(now the Central Line). I am not aware of evidence that there was any
previous usage of the term "tube".

Well, it's self-evident that the meaning of the term "tube" would have
to be at least vaguely familiar for calling the CLR (not the CSLR) the
"twopenny tube" to work. Logically, nobody would coin a phrase like
"twopenny tube" if they would then need to explain what a "tube" (in
that context) was. As a comparison, Dyson vacuum cleaners are _now_
marketed as, "The most powerful cyclone cylinder cleaner in the
world"; they weren't at first because nobody would have known what a
"cyclone cylinder cleaner" was!
--

The terms "tuppenny" and "tube" were both words in common usage at the time.
When it was explained that the flat fare to travel the whole line was
tuppence ("two pence" to the metricated amongst us) and that it ran through
an iron pipe or tube I doubt the vast majority of people would have had
difficulty understanding the concept.

I think it's more the usage of "tube" being recognisable as meaning a
deep-level shield-cut underground line; the coinage bit is taken as
given. We know that after a brief flirtation after 1900 (e.g.
Strand/Aldwych, Holborn and other Yerkes stations frontages, various
maps, etc.) the use of the word "tube" officially discouraged, but I
think it highly unlikely that the first ever instance of such a line
being referred colloquially as a "tube" begins sharply with the
"twopenny tube" (cf. poster on the back of Bruce & Croome book of the
same title) phrase appearing in 1900 when the CLR actually opened.
There must have been at least a certain degree of common usage, as
someone coining the phrase wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Of course, the thing about words in colloquial usage is that they can
take a long time to filter through to printed sources that can be
retrospectively verified today. People could have been - and very
probably were - referring to the the CSLR and the CLR (the latter at
least in the context of its planning and construction) as "tube
railways" a lot earlier than the 1900 reference, but that doesn't mean
that there'll be references to them as such in, say, 'The Times' prior
to that date that we can check and point to today. It may have been
years, months, or even weeks, but it doesn't make sense that the first
ever use was the one Colin referred to. It would be as if a certain
book by Mary Shelley had not been successful, widely read, or
extensively adapted for the screen, and yet some 'Daily Mail'
journalist still chose to call GM products "Frankenstein Foods" -
nobody would have had a clue what they were talking about.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:03 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Have you evidence of that last claim? All I'm aware of is that the
soubriquet "twopenny tube" was coined by a newspaper referring to the
CSLR (now the Central Line). I am not aware of evidence that there was
any previous usage of the term "tube".

Well, it's self-evident that the meaning of the term "tube" would have
to be at least vaguely familiar for calling the CLR (not the CSLR) the
"twopenny tube" to work. Logically, nobody would coin a phrase like
"twopenny tube" if they would then need to explain what a "tube" (in
that context) was. As a comparison, Dyson vacuum cleaners are _now_
marketed as, "The most powerful cyclone cylinder cleaner in the
world"; they weren't at first because nobody would have known what a
"cyclone cylinder cleaner" was!

I am aware that the CLR advertised itself as the Tube on stations. But was
that before the soubriquet was coined or after? I don't take it as
self-evident that the term was in general use.

--
Colin Rosenstiel