Nick H (UK) wrote:
Piccadilly Pilot wrote:

Philip Mason wrote:

I can confirm I have been on the wrong side of a bus when the driver
decided that he would just pull out. it was on a wide road in London,
where I would have had enough space to overtake a "normal" road
vehicle which would have been pulling out from the same spot.
However, the bus decided it would indicate and, simultaneously, pull
out right into the side of my car. Luckily only minor scratches were
obtained, but it could easily have been much worse if, as you state,
My car were a bicycle or motorbike!

Current government policy is to stop Londoners from enjoying the
roads as we should, and instead they are forcing everybody to travel
on the HIGHLY inadequate public transport. I am sure it will not be
long before TfL is taken to the EU Court of Human Rights by someone
who feels they have the right to choose comfort over bus

Since when has there been the right to drive a car?

Since when has there been a right to pay vast amounts of money in road
tax and duty on fuel?

No-one is completely obligated to pay those sums of money.

Since when has there been a right to run buses on the road?

Since the authorities pay for roads, it's quite reasonable for them to
run buses on them - especially when it is not just motorists who pay for
roads, it's people who need/want public transport too.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Nick H (UK) wrote:

Piccadilly Pilot wrote:

Philip Mason wrote:

I can confirm I have been on the wrong side of a bus when the driver
decided that he would just pull out. it was on a wide road in London,
where I would have had enough space to overtake a "normal" road
vehicle which would have been pulling out from the same spot.
However, the bus decided it would indicate and, simultaneously, pull
out right into the side of my car. Luckily only minor scratches were
obtained, but it could easily have been much worse if, as you state,
My car were a bicycle or motorbike!

Current government policy is to stop Londoners from enjoying the
roads as we should, and instead they are forcing everybody to travel
on the HIGHLY inadequate public transport. I am sure it will not be
long before TfL is taken to the EU Court of Human Rights by someone
who feels they have the right to choose comfort over bus


Since when has there been the right to drive a car?


Since when has there been a right to pay vast amounts of money in road
tax and duty on fuel?


No-one is completely obligated to pay those sums of money.

Since when has there been a right to run buses on the road?


Since the authorities pay for roads, it's quite reasonable for them to
run buses on them - especially when it is not just motorists who pay for
roads, it's people who need/want public transport too.


Where do you think these authorities get their money from? Have you ever
paid any taxes?

Of course we all pay for roads, but motorists most of all.

Do you think drivers never travel by public transport?

There is room for all. It wasn't car drivers that started the US and
THEM mentality. It was the politicians whose dogma is suited by
demonising car drivers.

It's all my fault really: I voted for Ken Livingston. At least the first
time around; not the second or ever again.






--
Nick H (UK)

--- Nick H (UK) said:

Anonymouse wrote:

Why not move cars on to minor roads?

Cars use minor roads /anyway/. Put the buses there too and leave
the main roads free to get as much traffic flowing as possible.


Odd... The real trouble is that they *ARE* putting more buses on minor
roads, even though these roads are too minor for large vehicles.

A while back I was in a 410 bus, which goes down almost every narrow
back street and cul-de-sac between Crystal Palace and Croydon. On one
of these narrow streets, it met a dustcart coming the other way. There
was no room for the two large vehicles to pass, so they sat there for
about five minutes, each waiting for the other to move out of the way.
Now, the bus had right of way, and the dustcart should have moved. But
its driver was in no hurry. Maybe he even wanted to get delayed so he
could claim overtime. In the end, the bus driver was forced to back up
and allow the dustcart through.

And, before anyone asks, no I didn't take the dustcart's number and
report it to the council. After all, the real fault was with whichever
idiot decided to send a bus route down such a minor road in the first
place. This was a delay just waiting to happen from as soon as the
route was first planned.


Why not ban cars from roads where they cannot pass
buses?

Ahh, so you've swallowed the Bus is King line. Surely there's
room for everyone with correct planning, rather than crazy
dogma.


Because, for the long-term benefit of the environment, we need to
drastically reduce emissions to around 128ppm (a cut of around
two-thirds from the current 379ppm). And the *ONLY* way that's going to
ever be practical is if there are fewer motorists making fewer journeys
in fewer cars. Now the best possible solution is if these ex-motorists
(and everyone else) choose to stay at home instead of travelling.
Taking the bus, or any form of public transport, is the next least worst
option.

But, then again, "Bus is One of the Next Least Worst Options" isn't
quite as catchy a slogan as "Bus is King", is it? Still, why let facts
get in the way of your rant, eh?

Replying to my own posts is bad netiquette, I said:



Because, for the long-term benefit of the environment, we need to
drastically reduce emissions to around 128ppm (a cut of around
two-thirds from the current 379ppm).

And before anyone points it out, yes I did type the wrong figures.
Sorry. My mistake. The *total* CO2 in the atmosphere this year is
379ppm, not just the emissions. But we still need to reduce CO2
*emissions* by two-thirds in the long term, not just the puny 5%
recommended by Kyoto. (See last week's New Scientist for details.).

Sorry for any confusion. Remind me to double check my posts before I
send them in future!

Nick H (UK) wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 11 Oct 2004:

Annabel Smyth wrote:

Nick H (UK) wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 10 Oct 2004:

And why can't other drivers actually *use* bus lanes when available?
Because at those hours, the bus lane is invariably blocked by parked
cars.

Which is fine, if parking is allowed at those hours.

Which, at the hours when we tend to be driving, it normally is.

However, I often find that the bus lane is clear and empty.

Would I therefore be correct in assuming that you often drive between
10.00 am and 4.00 pm on a weekday, when many bus-lanes are available for
other drivers to use?

This however, also encourages overtaking in the left, which is
fundamentally dangerous.

Swings and roundabouts!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

"Nick H (UK)" wrote in message ...
Of course we all pay for roads, but motorists most of all.

I wish that were true but I suspect none of the road fund license ever
goes directly to road improvements. It goes into the treasury tax coffers
and they dish money out on an as-and-when basis to all forms of public
spending.

It's all my fault really: I voted for Ken Livingston. At least the first
time around; not the second or ever again.

Ken my not be perfect , but you really have preferred that lying
philanderer Norris with his many business interests that would have
been in direct conflict with the role of mayor? God help us if that man
ever gets in. At least ken is generally so ineffectual he can't do much
harm.

B2003

Nick H (UK) wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

Nick H (UK) wrote:

Piccadilly Pilot wrote:

Philip Mason wrote:

I can confirm I have been on the wrong side of a bus when the driver
decided that he would just pull out. it was on a wide road in London,
where I would have had enough space to overtake a "normal" road
vehicle which would have been pulling out from the same spot.
However, the bus decided it would indicate and, simultaneously, pull
out right into the side of my car. Luckily only minor scratches were
obtained, but it could easily have been much worse if, as you state,
My car were a bicycle or motorbike!

Current government policy is to stop Londoners from enjoying the
roads as we should, and instead they are forcing everybody to travel
on the HIGHLY inadequate public transport. I am sure it will not be
long before TfL is taken to the EU Court of Human Rights by someone
who feels they have the right to choose comfort over bus

Since when has there been the right to drive a car?

Since when has there been a right to pay vast amounts of money in
road tax and duty on fuel?

No-one is completely obligated to pay those sums of money.

Since when has there been a right to run buses on the road?

Since the authorities pay for roads, it's quite reasonable for them to
run buses on them - especially when it is not just motorists who pay
for roads, it's people who need/want public transport too.

Where do you think these authorities get their money from? Have you ever
paid any taxes?

Of course I've paid taxes. Since the authorities pay for roads out of
taxes (and aren't local roads are mostly paid for out of local taxes?),
and taxes come from everyone, then provision should be for everyone.
Obviously that includes motorists, but motorists also inflict the most
wear on the roads, cause the most accidents and injuries to other road
users such as cyclists and pedestrians, and require provision of parking
with all that entails. Therefore motorists should (and do) pay extra to
cover this.

Of course we all pay for roads, but motorists most of all.

For the reasons I just stated.

Do you think drivers never travel by public transport?

What does that have to do with the "right" to drive a car?

There is room for all. It wasn't car drivers that started the US and
THEM mentality. It was the politicians whose dogma is suited by
demonising car drivers.

Isn't the problem precisely that there *isn't* room for all? Faced with
ever-rising levels of traffic and therefore congestion and pollution,
what options are open to politicians? Facilitating car use just leads to
a spiral whereby traffic gets forever worse, planners devise schemes
based around car-users, and non-motorists are socially marginalised.

It may be that attempts to restrain the growth of car use have started
an "us and them" mentality, but that's just a product of many motorists'
inability to realise that constantly accommodating their current needs
will never satisfy their future ones.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Solar Penguin" wrote in message
...

A while back I was in a 410 bus, which goes down almost every narrow
back street and cul-de-sac between Crystal Palace and Croydon. On one
of these narrow streets, it met a dustcart coming the other way. There
was no room for the two large vehicles to pass, so they sat there for
about five minutes, each waiting for the other to move out of the way.
Now, the bus had right of way, and the dustcart should have moved. But
its driver was in no hurry. Maybe he even wanted to get delayed so he
could claim overtime. In the end, the bus driver was forced to back up
and allow the dustcart through.

I think you will find that most drivers of large vehicles have a mutual
understanding about what to do in such a situation. The dustcart has a job
to do, and so does the bus. The trouble is that you get someone who is
bloody-minded and decides to try to force his way through. Sounds like it
might have been the bus driver in this case. He probably need not have
driven past the place where he could have waited for the dustcart. On the
other hand he may have had a string of cars behind him, which also had to
back out.

We go down narrow lanes where you are liable to meet farm tractors with
large trailers, dustcarts, white vans, but worst of all cars. The car
drivers are those who can't work out the way to get past an obstacle which
the rest of us can negotiate with comparative ease.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Nick H (UK) wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Nick H (UK) wrote:

SNIPPED



Why not ban cars from roads where they cannot pass buses?



Ahh, so you've swallowed the Bus is King line. Surely there's room
for everyone with correct planning, rather than crazy dogma.

If by swallowed, you mean agree with, then yes. I see you have swallowed
the "bus isn't king" line.

Unfortunately, there isn't room. See below.


Why should bus drivers have the right to delay *everybody* ---
which includes all the other buses, before anyone replies with the
specious 'because they carry more people' argument. A bus blocking the
road may have a dozen people on board: it may be delaying hundreds.

Why not move bus routes to minor roads?




Why not move cars on to minor roads?


Cars use minor roads /anyway/. Put the buses there too and leave the
main roads free to get as much traffic flowing as possible.


Perhaps people want to travel along main roads. Main roads seem to have
plenty of traffic on them.

In any case, getting a double decker down a narrow London minor road
doesn't seem like a very sensible option.


This is London, not the highlands of Scotland. There simply isn't
enough road space for everyone to travel by car.



Actually I don't believe that. Huge amounts of road space have been
lost to cars through pavement widening, bus lanes, cycle lanes (which
many cyclists do not consider safe or want). Result: congestion. The we
have the spin that it is all down to cars. I believe that it is largely
down to engineering. It's all spin.


How many lanes have been lost? Lanes generally make a difference, not
total road space. And surely pavement widening is a good thing (not that
I've seen much evidence of it in London). Cities are for people to live
in. I come from a city that was mostly demolished in the sixties are
rebuilt for cars, rather than people. It is now a dangerous concrete
jungle few would venture out in after dark (or before, for that matter).
Getting people (not in cars) out on the streets is good for everyone -
it reduces congestion and makes them safer for everyone.

Remember, before the congestion charge something like 14% of
journeys in central London were made by car, and we had near gridlock.



had? On the main road near to me (not in the congestion zone)it is
often gridlock. Why? Oh, sheer weight of traffic, many would cry.
But how many times do have the experience of taking half an hour to
approach and pass through one set of traffic lights, after which the
road is clear. An engineered jam!


Non-anecdotal evidence, please.

Stop-start congested traffic: good for the environment? No. Nice for
residents? No. Nice for pedestrians, No. Who wins? the local politicians
and the council-tax (our money) spending staff and their crazy schemes.


Certainly stop-start congested traffic is bad for everyone. That is why
we need fewer cars on the road!

Cars can only be used by a small minority in large city - it's
difficult to see why they should be given much priority.

And why can't other drivers actually *use* bus lanes when
available? No; scrap that one because then I wouldn't be able to sail
down the available bus lane while everyone else waits in the single lane;-)


I can't see how delaying cars can be a bad thing on the whole.
Making driving in London really unpleasant seems like a good way to get
people out of their cars to me. After all, a similar policy was in place
against pedestrians for many years - look at most British towns. OK -
it's a shame for the small number of drivers who have to travel by car,
and emergency access needs to be considered. In the long run, though,
fewer unnecessary cars on the road would be to everyone's benefit.

The cause of the filling in of bus stops is that car drivers don't
let buses pull out.



Every bus delaying the traffic is delaying other buses as well. Why
can't anyone take in this simple fact? Traffic moving is traffic moving:
better for everyone.


Of course it is delaying other buses. But the total bus delay may well
be lower than if they also have to wait to pull out every time that they
stop. What is your SOLUTION to the problem?

If car drivers acquired some basic consideration for other people



If bus drivers (who used to be professionals, not road-hogging,
junction blocking idiots) acquired some basic consideration for other
people...


I do accept that the standard of bus driving in London is often not good.

(which it's questionable whether you can have if you choose to drive
in London anyway), this wouldn't be necessary.

A

Nick H (UK) wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:
SNIPPED

From personal experience, I would put it as
punish-the-few-for-the-sins-of-the-majority. There is something quite
scary about the way normally rational people behave when behind the
wheel of a car. And let's not forget the six million bus passengers
every day in London who are currently inconvenienced by inconsiderate
drivers.


Well well, six million people ehh? every day? Would that be a rational
reasonable statistic? have they been counted? smells like spin to me.

Six million people per day - well six million journeys. This is the way
transport statistics are usually given, for cars as well as public
transport. I did mean to give my reference:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/press-re...ess-1018.shtml

It sounds reasonable to me. Please give your references or calculations
if you still want to claim that it isn't.

But: When a bus driver can't pull in because the stop is full of cars,
or obstructed by cars then it is not down to the bus. If traffic wardens
spent their time targeting behaviour that actually obstructs traffic
everyone would be better off.

Such as illegal parking. However, I agree that traffic wardens should be
more proactive in targetting selfish and dangerous behaviour. My pet
hates a

- Drivers who ignore rule 146 section two of the highway code. This
states: "Take extra care at junctions. You should: ... watch out for
pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have
started to cross they have priority, so give way" (see
http://www.highcode.gov.uk/16.shtml) I have yet to meet a driver who
knows this rule.
- People who ignore box junctions. Just what is wrong with them?
However, when it was suggested that traffic wardens should be able to
fine drivers for this type of offence, the pro-car lobby were up in
arms, which shows just how moronic most of them are.


What is your solution to the problem? I have already written why I
think delaying car drivers for a short while is OK. Before, buses were
unable to pull out in traffic. Now, they can. If the solution
inconveniences those who are considerate, maybe they will increase
peer pressure on those who are not, and change their behaviour.


There are lots of dreadful drivers in London, behind the wheels of all
kinds of vehicles, public service included.

That's true, but I'm afraid it is just human nature. I'm not sure people
are really suitable to be drivers.

For the record, I nearly always let buses and taxis pull out ahead of
me,
providing they indicate their intention sufficiently in advance that
I can
slow down slightly without needing to brake, creating a gap into
which they
can pull. I sometimes get hooted from vehicles behind and once a bicycle
decided to overtake me on the left, narrowly escaping being sandwiched
between the bus and my nearside front wing - some people just cannot
read
the road ahead of them!



It's amazing, isn't it. If only all drivers were as good as those who
post to newsgroups! (Actually, why not brake to let buses pull out? I
don't understand that point.)


Why not indeed? When a bus is stopped on a busy road it isn't going to
get out (just as a car is not going to get out of a side road) unless
people use speed and lane discipline to facilitate each other. And a lot
of the time we do, or there would be vehicles full of skeletons all over
the roads.

I really am all for a higher standard of driving. How about the
professionals setting a good example?

A