"Marratxi" wrote in message
...

"Johnson Family" wrote in message
...
SNIP, SNIP, SNIP, etc.,
Robert Johnson
Student
University of York

P.S. I realise that some people consider such requests to be SPAM -
however,
I hope you will be able to forgive me for the sake of this project.

BEWARE !! I went on to this guy's site to fill in his questionnaire only
to
find lots more strange spellings. I went to the page where the responses
could allegedly be filled in, only to find that the areas where answers
were
to be entered were coloured yellow but nothing showed when I tried to type
into them and the instructions were to save the page to my hard drive. NO
!!!
It may not be spam but I smell a possible virus.
Baz

Dear Baz and everyone else who has so far answered,

Firstly, thank you very much for at least going to my site and trying to
answer the questions - I apologise if you found this difficult or even
impossible and shall try to correct the problem. It appears to be caused by
the MS Word security features which I attempted to use to maintain the
structure of the page. If after I have done this you still can't access the
questionnaire, please try one of the alternative formats (.txt or .rtf).

As for my spelling mistakes and typos, I can only apologise for not setting
the best example of students in this country. Though not an excuse for
failing to use spell-checker I should point out that I am registered blind
and that visually scanning a document for errors can be difficult. Also, if
anybody know's of a spell checker for html documents, please let me know, as
I don't use fancy software to write it - only MS Notepad.

Finally, I did realise when producing this questionnaire that the people
most likely to have experienced London's trams and their closure do not
generally use the internet, let alone read newsgroup. If, however, I
receive just one response (which infact I already have, thanks Richard) it
will have been worthwhile.

Many thanks again for reading this - I shall post again when the bugs are
ironed out - please "bear" with me on that.

Yours,

Robert Johnson

In message , Richard J.
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

At A level, marks are allocated for SPG (Spelling, Punctuation and
Grammar) in all papers involving prose answers, whatever the
subject. This has been the case for many years.

That directly contradicts a report I saw recently in The Times

On the contrary, the Times is correct - but because it has told you only
part of the story, you have drawn the wrong conclusion.

which quoted an A-level examiner as saying he was under strict
instructions *not* to penalise even gross errors of spelling such as
"he would of" instead of "he would have".

Quite apart from the fact that that is not a spelling error, even the
word "penalise" is a gross misunderstanding of how exams are marked. You
get marks for what you show you can do. If you can't spell, you don't
get the marks - simple as that. Exams are not marked by starting with
100% and then deducting penalties for what hasn't been achieved!

For instance, in AL History spelling and syntax must be "generally
secure" to get any mark other than zero. In other subjects, a small
number of specific marks are awarded for quality of communication. For
instance, in order to get full marks for this category in an ICT paper,
the work must display "excellent spelling, punctuation and grammar".

So, the Times is right - examiners don't penalise individual spelling
errors (or anything else for that matter), but they do award marks for
good spelling, punctuation and grammar - and in every subject in which
prose answers are required. This, incidentally, is a government
requirement of exam boards, and is policed by QCA. Markschemes are
published on the WWW so it is not hard to verify this sort of thing.

This is way off topic for this newsgroup, so follow-ups to poster (who
was, BTW, an A-level Chief Examiner for many years) please.
--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote in message ...
In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that students in any subject other than English are not
penalised for poor language skills, so they never have an incentive to
improve those skills.

At A level, marks are allocated for SPG (Spelling, Punctuation and
Grammar) in all papers involving prose answers, whatever the subject.
This has been the case for many years. I don't think the problem is lack
of incentive so much as lack of ability.

Yeah, about three marks. It can make a difference, but it probably
won't.

I don't know what universities do these days, since it is some years
since I last taught at that level.

Bugger all. The people who would have got firsts anyway will still get
firsts regardless (and anyway, they're the ones who usually know how
to write English prose), and everyone else gets a 2:1 in the
prizes-for-all league table culture, unless they're a bit thick, when
they get a 2:2, or do no work at all when they get a third. No-one's
allowed to fail because it might infringe their human rights; and
besides, it would make the University look bad.

The whole undergraduate business is now orientated towards statistics
(which by popular acclaim are an advanced form of lying). It's
marginally less fair and a hell of a lot more admin than having dons
decide behind closed doors whether someone's a first class chap or
not.

Quite frankly, it would be a lot easier taking £3,000 off the
undergraduates, giving them their degree certificates on the spot and
telling them to have fun for the next three years.

/rant

From: "Marratxi"
Date: 08/10/2004 22:22 GMT

Is this a spoof ? Do university students in their final year really make
such elementary spelling mistakes in what are otherwise well constructed
messages ?

Ah! But apparently he's at York, who turned down a mate of mine who'd also put
Oxford on his UCAS form. When my mate rang up to ask the admissions tutor why
he'd been rejected the reply was "I don't think anyone who's put Oxford on
their form would feel happy at York" (he was later accepted by Magdalen, by the
way). I find it hard to frame a more eloquent and anodyne equivalent to York's
admissions tutor's "Look, this place is an academic sink, if you've got half a
brain you wouldn't come near the place" look-alike statement (which is what it
really is when you strip the sophistry away).

It is therefore no surprise that spelling, grammar and syntax are probably
optional at York, even in your final year.

Acrosticus wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 9 Oct 2004:

Ah! But apparently he's at York, who turned down a mate of mine who'd also put
Oxford on his UCAS form. When my mate rang up to ask the admissions tutor why
he'd been rejected the reply was "I don't think anyone who's put Oxford on
their form would feel happy at York" (he was later accepted by Magdalen, by the
way). I find it hard to frame a more eloquent and anodyne equivalent to York's
admissions tutor's "Look, this place is an academic sink, if you've got half a
brain you wouldn't come near the place" look-alike statement (which is what it
really is when you strip the sophistry away).

I think you must be speaking of some years ago now, since when my
daughter applied, now about 6 or 7 years ago, she also applied to
Cambridge, and York's conditional offer was several points more rigorous
than most that she received.

It is therefore no surprise that spelling, grammar and syntax are probably
optional at York, even in your final year.

Well, my daughter was a history and archaeology student there, and I
think they *did* bother about it. Mind you, she graduated some three
years ago now, so times may have changed.... but she did the railway
unit, too.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

In message , James
writes

At A level, marks are allocated for SPG (Spelling, Punctuation and
Grammar) in all papers involving prose answers, whatever the subject.
This has been the case for many years. I don't think the problem is lack
of incentive so much as lack of ability.

Yeah, about three marks.

Three marks per paper in each of 6 papers.

It can make a difference, but it probably won't.

On the contrary, with only 6 marks between grades in many subjects 3
marks are likely to make the difference of a grade for many candidates.

--
Paul Terry

In message , Acrosticus
writes

Ah! But apparently he's at York, who turned down a mate of mine who'd also put
Oxford on his UCAS form. When my mate rang up to ask the admissions tutor why
he'd been rejected the reply was "I don't think anyone who's put Oxford on
their form would feel happy at York" (he was later accepted by Magdalen, by the
way). I find it hard to frame a more eloquent and anodyne equivalent to York's
admissions tutor's "Look, this place is an academic sink, if you've got half a
brain you wouldn't come near the place" look-alike statement (which is what it
really is when you strip the sophistry away).

Have you looked at the position of York in the league tables? They are
one of the top universities in the country and have been for many years
in a lot of subjects. They frequently give tougher offers than Oxbridge.

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , James
writes

At A level, marks are allocated for SPG (Spelling, Punctuation and
Grammar) in all papers involving prose answers, whatever the subject.
This has been the case for many years. I don't think the problem is lack
of incentive so much as lack of ability.

Yeah, about three marks.

Three marks per paper in each of 6 papers.

It can make a difference, but it probably won't.

On the contrary, with only 6 marks between grades in many subjects 3 marks
are likely to make the difference of a grade for many candidates.

--
Paul Terry

I probably shouldn't reply to this thread as it misses the point of my
original point, but I can't help it.

I am quite upset - hurt at the way a few spelling mistakes - mistakes that
must occure many hundreds of thousands of times in newsgroup posts, have
been taken as proof that students are not what they used to be, or that
teaching standards have dropped.

I am one student of about three hundred thousand who enter Higher education
every year. Like most of my contemporaries I have worked incredibly hard to
get here - I am proud to say that I have earned my place at one of the
country's best Universities.

And I have done that, not as an able-bodied student, perhaps privately or
grammer school educated, but as somebody who is registered blind, surviving
in a comprehensive school where few want to learn, or hold asperations
beyond the dole queue.

I don't like to make a "big thing" of my visual impairment - I passed tha
same exams that everyone else does to get to University, I had to reach the
same standards. But when I see people pendantically picking apart my
spelling, or bemoaning failing education standards based on my prose I feel
sad. Sad that people cannot see how well I have done to get where I am
today. Sad that people cannot be glad that I am researching a subject of
interest to them. Sad that I - somebody who is registered blind, can
succeed at this level of education at all.

I wrote, in good faith, a well structured post asking for peoples'
experiences. In return I have received a barrage of hurtful criticism.
Criticism of me, of my University and of students as a whole. Why can't you
discuss the "real" issues raised by my questions, instead of the tired old
arguements reserrected everytime a story about Further or Higher education
hits the front pages. By all means,

Yours,

Robert

P.S. I apologise for the tone of this post - whilst I mean every word of it,
I might have put it slightly more diplomatically were it not for half a
bottle of good wine and an impulse reaction to your posts.

"Johnson Family" wrote the following in:


I am quite upset - hurt at the way a few spelling mistakes -
mistakes that must occure many hundreds of thousands of times in
newsgroup posts, have been taken as proof that students are not
what they used to be, or that teaching standards have dropped.

I didn't notice spelling mistakes until they were pointed out, and I am
someone who normally does notice such things. I do think you've been
treated a bit unfairly about this. Good luck with your research.

As far as punctuation and grammar is concerned, I agree that it isn't
taught well. This isn't because the standard of teaching has fallen but
because teachers are no longer instructed to teach it. I regret that
because I feel it is something I've missed out on and I often find
myself wondering what's correct because I've never been taught. It's
frustrating trying to get these things right without really knowing the
rules of the language I speak.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

Robin May wrote:
"Johnson Family" wrote the following in:


I am quite upset - hurt at the way a few spelling mistakes -
mistakes that must occure many hundreds of thousands of times in
newsgroup posts, have been taken as proof that students are not
what they used to be, or that teaching standards have dropped.

I didn't notice spelling mistakes until they were pointed out, and
I am someone who normally does notice such things. I do think
you've been treated a bit unfairly about this.

Having re-read the thread and Robert's website, I agree that we have
been over-harsh. It was unfortunate that there was a spelling mistake in
the first line of his initial post, as this led me to think that here
was another example of the lack of attention to spelling and grammar in
our schools. In fact, Robert's posts and his website display good
fluency with the English language, and the odd typo should not trouble
us so much. Well done, Robert, for your impassioned defence!

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)