On 21 Oct 2004 14:36:26 -0700, (Silas Denyer)
wrote in message :

I'm off to find fresh data. In the mean time I shouldn't be suprised
that someone who goes by the soubriquet "Just zis Guy, you know"
quotes Douglas Adams (actually Douglas Adams allegedly quoting THGTHG)
as a philosopher.

Oh Adams is a philosopher alright. "Anyone who is capable of getting
themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the
job." - see? ;-)

FWIW, your points are well made, even if I don't agree with them. My
original point was, however, that I was concerned that mass
lawlessness (whether dangerous or not) was a bad thing for society,
and that when this lawlessness was being openly accepted as a
competitive advantage in business and furthermore being perpetrated by
uniformed police officers, society was on very shaky ground indeed.

All of which is fair enough, as previously acknowledged, but it makes
no sense to single out one small part of that lawlessness, especially
when that small part of the overall lawlessness of road users is
responsible for a vanishingly small proportion of the total risk.

There are very few forms of mass-perpetrated antisocial behavious
which are routinely ignored, but these cycle-related issues are one of
them.

True: speeding is not "ignored". It is instead vigorously defended as
some kind of civil right, with enforcement being portrayed by
motorists' groups as massively unpopular (despite research showing
around 75% support for cameras), and the Monster Raving Tory Party
making reduction of enforcement a key priority for Government.
Overall I don't see any justification at all for singling out cyclists
in these circumstances.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

James Annan ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

I ride through red lights all the time.

Can I ask why?

Of course you can.

I knew asking a genuine question in an attempt to get a rational response
was a waste of time...

Silas Denyer ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Yes, near Ambleside in Cumbria in 1986. I was clocked at over 30mph by
a police officer and stopped and "let off with a warning" for
exceeding the speed limit. I wasn't aware that the offense didn't
exist, and neither - clearly - was the office concerned.

For reference, I was coming down Kirkstone pass, and was undoubtedly
riding "furiously" and not being altogether sensible, but the offense
offered by the officer was definitely that of exceeding the speed
limit.

Umm, isn't that NSL? I certainly don't recall streetlights or 30 repeaters
all over the middle of nowhere...

Silas, I understand your anger. However, I suggest that it's fundamentally born of envy. In point of fact, the people who are most in danger when cycling through red lights are the cyclists themselves. If you were accustomed to cycling in London, you would recognise that careful traversing of crossroads on a bicycle when lights are red, greatly increases their safety, since they are in far greater danger when vehicles are moving off at a junction as the light goes green. This is because drivers' behaviour often involves failing to indicate when turning and frequently desiring to be first off the line ahead of someone in another lane in order to be in front when two lanes become one. This is perilous for a cyclist who is likely to get squeezed out being 'smaller'. I came to a junction on my bike in Wandsworth last night. The light ahead was red. A coach overtook me in the narrow lane to queue behind the six or eight other cars at the red light. I was forced abruptly to a standstill as the coach came in around me to hug the kerb.
Until it is recognised that cyclists have equal use of the road and should be treated no differently from other road users, they will continue to bend the rules in order to secure their safety, which given their physical vulnerability, having no cage around them, is surely paramount in the argument. Councils need to recognise this and put in place measures which support their safety. Green boxes for bicycles at junctions are often ignored by drivers and are insufficient protection when traffic moves off simultaneously: perhaps the answer is a green light for bicycles prior to that for motorised vehicles.
Such measures would be a fitting acknowledgement of the greater sense in travelling by pedal power, both environmentally and in terms of the health it promotes, not to mention the efficiency in saving time which is so important to London travellers who are increasingly frustrated by over-burdened public transport.