We had a very brief argument about this a month or so ago; Barry Salter
said they did, i said they didn't, and Clive threatened to excavate as
much of north London as was necessary to find out.

This is not an authoritative answer, but i did finally notice that
according to Quail, they do cross, and the crossing is indeed a little way
south of Harringay Green Lanes; probably too far to build a station with
interchange, though.

On a more general note, how can one go about getting accurate information
about the routes of underground railways? Are there some sort of official
maps somewhere?

tom

--
Pizza: cheap, easy, and portable. Oh, wait, that's me. Never mind. -- Edda

In message ,
Tom Anderson writes

We had a very brief argument about this a month or so ago; Barry Salter
said they did, i said they didn't, and Clive threatened to excavate as
much of north London as was necessary to find out.

This is not an authoritative answer, but i did finally notice that
according to Quail, they do cross, and the crossing is indeed a little way
south of Harringay Green Lanes; probably too far to build a station with
interchange, though.

On a more general note, how can one go about getting accurate information
about the routes of underground railways? Are there some sort of official
maps somewhere?

There is the map at the end of ...

http://www.londontransport.co.uk/tfl.../marketone.pdf

.... it is not wonderfully detailed, but it does show that crossing point
south of Green Lanes.

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Tom Anderson writes

We had a very brief argument about this a month or so ago; Barry
Salter said they did, i said they didn't, and Clive threatened to
excavate as much of north London as was necessary to find out.

This is not an authoritative answer, but i did finally notice that
according to Quail, they do cross, and the crossing is indeed a
little way south of Harringay Green Lanes; probably too far to
build a station with interchange, though.

On a more general note, how can one go about getting accurate
information about the routes of underground railways? Are there
some sort of official maps somewhere?

There is the map at the end of ...

http://www.londontransport.co.uk/tfl.../marketone.pdf

... it is not wonderfully detailed, but it does show that crossing
point south of Green Lanes.

But is that just luck? The map is wrong in other areas, for example the
Jubilee Line between Baker Street and Bond Street, or DLR at Bank.

I haven't yet found a fully accurate map. The nearest I have is an old
(1956) Bartholemew's Central London Atlas-Guide, but of course that's
now very out of date. The .pdf street maps in the TfL Journey Planner
also appear to be quite accurate, though it can be tricky to get it to
display the one you want.

I have never seen one which shows the two sharp double-bends on the
Piccadilly Line east of South Kensington.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

http://www.londontransport.co.uk/tfl.../marketone.pdf

... it is not wonderfully detailed, but it does show that crossing
point south of Green Lanes.

But is that just luck? The map is wrong in other areas, for example the
Jubilee Line between Baker Street and Bond Street, or DLR at Bank.

"Not wonderfully detailed" was not the best description - it would be
fairer to say that there are quite a few approximations! I don't think
there is anything much better to be found on the WWW, though.

I haven't yet found a fully accurate map. The nearest I have is an old
(1956) Bartholemew's Central London Atlas-Guide, but of course that's
now very out of date. The .pdf street maps in the TfL Journey Planner
also appear to be quite accurate, though it can be tricky to get it to
display the one you want.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong ones, they don't show tube-line routes.

I have never seen one which shows the two sharp double-bends on the
Piccadilly Line east of South Kensington.

My 1948 Bartholomew's Greater London Reference Atlas shows it very
clearly at 4" to the mile - but I see that tube lines are not shown in
the 1961 edition of the same atlas.

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Richard J.
writes

I have never seen one which shows the two sharp
double-bends on the Piccadilly Line east of South Kensington.

My 1948 Bartholomew's Greater London Reference Atlas
shows it very clearly at 4" to the mile - but I see that tube
lines are not shown in the 1961 edition of the same atlas.

.... not shown where they stay beneath roads, but shown elsewhere, eg the
Piccadilly between Russell Sq and KX, or the Northern from Waterloo to
Kennington.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Paul Terry wrote:
The .pdf street maps in the
TfL Journey Planner also appear to be quite accurate, though it
can be tricky to get it to display the one you want.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong ones, they don't show tube-line
routes.

You have to devise a route that uses the tube line in question. For
example a route from postcode W1G 6BW (The London Clinic) to Southwark
will involve either walk-tube or walk-bus-tube, and in all cases the
tube is the Jubilee Line from Baker Street. If you view the details of
any of these routes and click on "start map" for the initial walk, it
will show not only the walking route but the subsequent Jubilee Line
route passing near Regent's Park station.

I have never seen one which shows the two sharp double-bends on the
Piccadilly Line east of South Kensington.

My 1948 Bartholomew's Greater London Reference Atlas shows it very
clearly at 4" to the mile

Interesting! My Bartholemew's of 1956 (3" to the mile) shows a left
bend after South Ken, then a straight north-easterly run (not following
the road pattern) to a second left-hander to align with Brompton Road,
then a right-hander following the curve of Brompton Road by the Oratory.
If yours shows the correct left-right-left-right sequence, which roads
does it run under?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

TfL journey planner maps

You have to devise a route that uses the tube line in question.

Ah, thanks. It is interesting to see the route of the Piccadilly at
South Ken if you enter something like Onslow Square to Knightsbridge.

Interesting! My Bartholemew's of 1956 (3" to the mile) shows a left
bend after South Ken, then a straight north-easterly run (not following
the road pattern) to a second left-hander to align with Brompton Road,
then a right-hander following the curve of Brompton Road by the Oratory.
If yours shows the correct left-right-left-right sequence, which roads
does it run under?

No, sorry, it doesn't. This has come up before, as I recall.

I think the second bend (following Brompton Road) is correct but the
section before that is wrong. I have had a look at numerous early
20th-century maps, and most follow Bartholomew. Some of the Bacon maps
show a tightly curved exit from the station, so that the line runs
beneath and across Thurloe Square - but I think that is also wrong,
since the position shown would produce tightly curved platforms.

I suspect the most likely route is that shown by the about Journey
Planner map, except that the Piccadilly lies directly beneath the
District line rather than a little to the south of it.

The reason is not only that the shape of the reverse curves seems right,
but also the fact that the triangular site above the first curve (i.e.
south of South Terrace) was a riding school at the end of the 19th
century. That would doubtless have made it much easier and cheaper to
obtain a wayleave for this one section of line that was not directly
beneath a road or railway, rather than having to pay owners for
tunnelling beneath multiple private properties. (The riding school is
marked as "works" on later maps, after the Piccadilly was built).

--
Paul Terry

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Richard J. wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Tom Anderson writes

On a more general note, how can one go about getting accurate
information about the routes of underground railways? Are there some
sort of official maps somewhere?

There is the map at the end of ...

http://www.londontransport.co.uk/tfl.../marketone.pdf

... it is not wonderfully detailed, but it does show that crossing
point south of Green Lanes.

But is that just luck? The map is wrong in other areas, for example the
Jubilee Line between Baker Street and Bond Street, or DLR at Bank.

I haven't yet found a fully accurate map.

But how do you know whether a map is accurate? That you can evaluate them
implies that you have some sort of authoritative source of knowledge about
the routes - which is what i'm after!

tom

--
see im down wid yo sci fi crew

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Richard J. wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Tom Anderson writes

On a more general note, how can one go about getting accurate
information about the routes of underground railways? Are there
some sort of official maps somewhere?

There is the map at the end of ...

http://www.londontransport.co.uk/tfl.../marketone.pdf

... it is not wonderfully detailed, but it does show that crossing
point south of Green Lanes.

But is that just luck? The map is wrong in other areas, for
example the Jubilee Line between Baker Street and Bond Street, or
DLR at Bank.

I haven't yet found a fully accurate map.

But how do you know whether a map is accurate? That you can
evaluate them implies that you have some sort of authoritative
source of knowledge about the routes - which is what i'm after!

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know enough to be able to say that
any map is accurate. But I do know enough to show that some maps (well,
all that I have seen, actually) are inaccurate. In the case of DLR Bank
and the Piccadilly east of South Ken, simple observation shows that the
map is not accurate. The Jubilee route "south" of Baker Street actually
goes via Regent's Park; I know because there's a Jubilee Line
ventilation shaft in the gardens north of Regent's Park station. Having
said that, I think the map is nevertheless one of the best I've seen.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message ,
at 20:28:53 on Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Tom Anderson
remarked:
But how do you know whether a map is accurate? That you can evaluate them
implies that you have some sort of authoritative source of knowledge about
the routes - which is what i'm after!

Maps like that have to be pieced together from a wide range of sources.
For example, the W&C map I posted a link to. An earlier in the year
there was a long discussion about the approaches to Morden (another
place where there's been a "joining the dots" rather than accurately
depicting the route). I've got some other original maps of the Northern
as it crosses the Thames. Others have spoken of the Piccadilly near
South Ken, and the Jubilee north of Baker St being formerly Bakerloo
makes the right-angle crossing shown rather implausible. I don't see a
huge bend at Bank-Central, which one observes when on the train. And so
on. Lots of little things to put together, each of which will improve
one small part.
--
Roland Perry