On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:


"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
In the message ...

Indeed, I recently travelled on (London) route 390 in a bus with such a
screen in the centre of the upper-deck windscreen, and was similarly
disappointed to see that none of the above-mentioned information (apart
from
generic TfL messages and advertising) was displayed. But AFAIK this is par
for the course in today's narrowly commercially-oriented world; even the
idea that the advertising would be more effective if it alternated with
information of real value to passengers (the more specific the better, eg
real-time details of alterations to the services...) has obviously not
crossed the minds of those concerned.

To do so would require a realtime link to pick up this information whereas
the present system can be updated at depots. I'm sure your idea has crossed
the minds of those concerned but perhaps their investigations showed that
the present control-to-bus link was not up to the job and upgrading it just
for this not cost effective.

Dave


I friend of mine writes on this subject:

------------------------------------------------------------
The problem in the UK has been that whilst it is all theoretically
possible, the environment on a bus going over the UK's somewhat
indifferently maintained roads has proved much more challenging to the
equipment than when it was being tested sitting on a desk or bench
top. There have therefore been a very large number of reliability
problems resulting in partial or complete failures of the systems
(hence different displays externally on front and sides).

Generally for external displays, the electrically operated roller
blind (as fitted to Croydon Tramlink) has proved to be more cost
effective and more reliable. You can get into quite high costs with
LED's particularly if you want true descenders on the lower case
(requires more lines of LED's for effectively the same size of
lettering). From a DDA perspective (for poorly sighted people of whom
there are many more than wheelchair bound) , I personally think blinds
are much easier to read than LED's on a moving vehicle. Internally I
think that most companies have now managed to get their acts together
and the equipment is now robust enough to be reliable (I saw some very
good location based internal displays on buses in the Harrogate area,
so they do exist in the UK).

One thing that you have to get right and often separates the skilled
'sheep' from the cheapo 'goats' is the issue of buses being diverted
or not completing whole routes. This is of course a matter of
compiling the logical algorithms thoroughly enough to allow for all
likely possibilities. There are unfortunately companies (often the
well known 'big boys') who seem to either lack the skills or
motivation or both to achieve this and hence the problems!
----------------------------------

David Bradley

In the message ...
"David Bradley" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:


"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in
message
...
In the message ...

Indeed, I recently travelled on (London) route 390 in a bus with such a
screen in the centre of the upper-deck windscreen, and was similarly
disappointed to see that none of the above-mentioned information (apart
from
generic TfL messages and advertising) was displayed. But AFAIK this is
par
for the course in today's narrowly commercially-oriented world; even
the
idea that the advertising would be more effective if it alternated with
information of real value to passengers (the more specific the better,
eg
real-time details of alterations to the services...) has obviously not
crossed the minds of those concerned.

To do so would require a realtime link to pick up this information
whereas
the present system can be updated at depots. I'm sure your idea has
crossed
the minds of those concerned but perhaps their investigations showed that
the present control-to-bus link was not up to the job and upgrading it
just
for this not cost effective.

Dave


I friend of mine writes on this subject:

------------------------------------------------------------
The problem in the UK has been that whilst it is all theoretically
possible, the environment on a bus going over the UK's somewhat
indifferently maintained roads has proved much more challenging to the
equipment than when it was being tested sitting on a desk or bench
top. There have therefore been a very large number of reliability
problems resulting in partial or complete failures of the systems
(hence different displays externally on front and sides).

Generally for external displays, the electrically operated roller
blind (as fitted to Croydon Tramlink) has proved to be more cost
effective and more reliable. You can get into quite high costs with
LED's particularly if you want true descenders on the lower case
(requires more lines of LED's for effectively the same size of
lettering). From a DDA perspective (for poorly sighted people of whom
there are many more than wheelchair bound) , I personally think blinds
are much easier to read than LED's on a moving vehicle. Internally I
think that most companies have now managed to get their acts together
and the equipment is now robust enough to be reliable (I saw some very
good location based internal displays on buses in the Harrogate area,
so they do exist in the UK).

One thing that you have to get right and often separates the skilled
'sheep' from the cheapo 'goats' is the issue of buses being diverted
or not completing whole routes. This is of course a matter of
compiling the logical algorithms thoroughly enough to allow for all
likely possibilities. There are unfortunately companies (often the
well known 'big boys') who seem to either lack the skills or
motivation or both to achieve this and hence the problems!
----------------------------------

Surely the *main advantage of using electronic technology* is the
possibility of changing the displayed information en route, to take account
of unforeseen situations - and there are various ways of compensating for
any potential loss of readability, such as using larger font sizes with
scrolling. So there's little point in making the change unless and until
real-time updating is available as part of the *system*. And don't all TfL
buses already have mobile radio facilities that could easily be adapted for
selective text broadcasting?

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:41:20 +0100, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
wrote:

In the message ...
"David Bradley" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:


"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in
message
...
In the message ...

Indeed, I recently travelled on (London) route 390 in a bus with such a
screen in the centre of the upper-deck windscreen, and was similarly
disappointed to see that none of the above-mentioned information (apart
from
generic TfL messages and advertising) was displayed. But AFAIK this is
par
for the course in today's narrowly commercially-oriented world; even
the
idea that the advertising would be more effective if it alternated with
information of real value to passengers (the more specific the better,
eg
real-time details of alterations to the services...) has obviously not
crossed the minds of those concerned.

To do so would require a realtime link to pick up this information
whereas
the present system can be updated at depots. I'm sure your idea has
crossed
the minds of those concerned but perhaps their investigations showed that
the present control-to-bus link was not up to the job and upgrading it
just
for this not cost effective.

Dave


I friend of mine writes on this subject:

------------------------------------------------------------
The problem in the UK has been that whilst it is all theoretically
possible, the environment on a bus going over the UK's somewhat
indifferently maintained roads has proved much more challenging to the
equipment than when it was being tested sitting on a desk or bench
top. There have therefore been a very large number of reliability
problems resulting in partial or complete failures of the systems
(hence different displays externally on front and sides).

Generally for external displays, the electrically operated roller
blind (as fitted to Croydon Tramlink) has proved to be more cost
effective and more reliable. You can get into quite high costs with
LED's particularly if you want true descenders on the lower case
(requires more lines of LED's for effectively the same size of
lettering). From a DDA perspective (for poorly sighted people of whom
there are many more than wheelchair bound) , I personally think blinds
are much easier to read than LED's on a moving vehicle. Internally I
think that most companies have now managed to get their acts together
and the equipment is now robust enough to be reliable (I saw some very
good location based internal displays on buses in the Harrogate area,
so they do exist in the UK).

One thing that you have to get right and often separates the skilled
'sheep' from the cheapo 'goats' is the issue of buses being diverted
or not completing whole routes. This is of course a matter of
compiling the logical algorithms thoroughly enough to allow for all
likely possibilities. There are unfortunately companies (often the
well known 'big boys') who seem to either lack the skills or
motivation or both to achieve this and hence the problems!
----------------------------------

Surely the *main advantage of using electronic technology* is the
possibility of changing the displayed information en route, to take account
of unforeseen situations - and there are various ways of compensating for
any potential loss of readability, such as using larger font sizes with
scrolling. So there's little point in making the change unless and until
real-time updating is available as part of the *system*. And don't all TfL
buses already have mobile radio facilities that could easily be adapted for
selective text broadcasting?

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)


Your observations required a fair amount of effort for a reply and so
my friend has come to the rescue with this response:
----------------------------------------
Information displayed on screens/LED displays inside buses is
technologically now possible. There are two types of information.

If the information is available on the bus, there is no problem (and
no costs) for communications. Thus it is easy to have adverts and/or
news information and if you wish you can create a ’virtual newspaper’
which can be updated each night in the garage. Clearly if advertising
covers (or better exceeds) the costs of doing the daily updates, this
becomes commercially attractive to the operator.

Similarly where the bus is actually physically located along a route
at any time, can be displayed from information that the bus itself
has. This can be obtained from various Global Positioning Systems or
the ticket machine inputs from the driver. This can optionally be
enhanced by then comparing the information to schedules held in a
database on board the bus itself and thus the passenger informed of
whether the bus they are on is early, on time or late at that point.
This is more complex but again no communications are involved and thus
there are no difficulties and no costs for this, although there is the
requirement to update the schedules within the database, to ensure
that the algorithms are still relevant to present services and to
allocate the bus to a schedule each day (the last item is normally
required anyway for most systems using GPS for bus monitoring).

The information, to which reference has been made, that would be
really useful is what is happening to any further transport system
that passengers intend to change into next. Thus a display on a bus on
an appropriate route for what is happening for example on main line
rail at Euston ,or the Northern Line at Oval, or Croydon Tramlink at
Addington Village or even another bus route at Camberwell Green would
be very useful to passengers who intended to continue their journeys
via one of those modes.

There are two problems. The information is of course only available
externally to the bus in question and secondly it changes frequently.
To make it available on the bus therefore requires an efficient
communication system for the data from a central source to the bus(es)
and also considerable usage of that communication channel to maintain
the timeliness of the data. Conventional radio systems of the type
frequently used for operational messages to the drivers of buses are
not generally particularly good for larger more complex data packets
which need to be sent very often. This is for a number of different
reasons. In particular poor reception in built up areas can often
scramble the data transfer and require its re-sending with consequent
wasteful usage of the comms. link. More reliable systems have been
available previously but because the frequent updating of all the
different possible interchange modes to all the different vehicles
required considerable bandwidth usage, the costs have been higher than
operators have wished to pay based on the perceived marketing
advantage of such a service. (Imagine for instance the total costs of
sending a conventional SMS type mobile phone message to each bus
every minute or so.)

The advent of both more reliable transmission and more reasonable
tariffs using GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) may now begin to
make a difference and it is probable that we shall see more ‘off the
bus’ real-time information available inside buses. This may still be
very much ‘an act of faith’ by the operators concerned as I am not
aware of any great research into the fiscal value of this display of
information to bus operators in terms of extra passenger journeys made
or its negative equivalent of passenger journeys not lost.
--------------------------------

I suppose the bottom line with the technology currently available is
whether the business advantage to the bus operator is sufficient to
have a return on the investment and operating costs. Would you pay a
higher ticket price for the delivery of this information while
travelling to your ultimate destination? Or, because of the on board
technology, would it attract more passengers than competition without
such facilities?

David Bradley

David Bradley wrote:

The information, to which reference has been made, that would be
really useful is what is happening to any further transport system
that passengers intend to change into next. Thus a display on a bus on
an appropriate route for what is happening for example on main line
rail at Euston ,or the Northern Line at Oval, or Croydon Tramlink at
Addington Village or even another bus route at Camberwell Green would
be very useful to passengers who intended to continue their journeys
via one of those modes.

Perhaps. On smaller networks, though, it strikes me that the easy solution
to bringing disruptions to passenger attention has been missed. Many buses
are fitted with radio equipment, which could be hooked up to a PA system on
the bus for very little money. Announcements regarding service disruption
and similar news could easily be transmitted to the whole network for no
greater cost than it can at present be transmitted to the driver only.

Hamburg's U-Bahn system has such an "on-board long-line PA" facility, which
is quite well-used to broadcast disruption information to passengers on its
trains. I'm surprised I've never seen it applied to buses - certainly in
London, where "connection" isn't a dirty word like it is in so many other
places.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To reply use neil at the above domain.

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:59:08 +0000, Neil Williams
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:

The information, to which reference has been made, that would be
really useful is what is happening to any further transport system
that passengers intend to change into next. Thus a display on a bus on
an appropriate route for what is happening for example on main line
rail at Euston ,or the Northern Line at Oval, or Croydon Tramlink at
Addington Village or even another bus route at Camberwell Green would
be very useful to passengers who intended to continue their journeys
via one of those modes.

Perhaps. On smaller networks, though, it strikes me that the easy solution
to bringing disruptions to passenger attention has been missed. Many buses
are fitted with radio equipment, which could be hooked up to a PA system on
the bus for very little money. Announcements regarding service disruption
and similar news could easily be transmitted to the whole network for no
greater cost than it can at present be transmitted to the driver only.

Hamburg's U-Bahn system has such an "on-board long-line PA" facility, which
is quite well-used to broadcast disruption information to passengers on its
trains. I'm surprised I've never seen it applied to buses - certainly in
London, where "connection" isn't a dirty word like it is in so many other
places.

Neil

The problem with any communication system primarily intended for the
driver is that you would require to arrange switching for messages so
that the driver only got the operational ones and the passengers those
intended for them. That would have to be done manually by the driver
(probably not appreciated by either the DfT or the T&GWU) or you would
need some clever recognition system that picked up a code in the
message and did the switching.

The latter option should be quite possible but would, I suspect, not
be a cheap option as a retro-fit on vehicles that were already fiited
with a radio system. You then still have to deal with the bandwidth
issue. A small number of urgent messages (most of which are sent out
as general calls to everyone) represents a very different level of
usage to specific information to individual vehicles on a regular
basis.

At the end of the day, as always is the case in all aspects of life,
you not only have to have the technology to do what you want, but you
also have to have the resources (usually cash) as well.

David Bradley on behalf of a friend

In article ,
(David Bradley) wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:59:08 +0000, Neil Williams
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:

The information, to which reference has been made, that would be
really useful is what is happening to any further transport system
that passengers intend to change into next. Thus a display on a bus
on an appropriate route for what is happening for example on main
line rail at Euston ,or the Northern Line at Oval, or Croydon
Tramlink at Addington Village or even another bus route at Camberwell
Green would be very useful to passengers who intended to continue
their journeys via one of those modes.

Perhaps. On smaller networks, though, it strikes me that the easy
solution to bringing disruptions to passenger attention has been
missed. Many buses are fitted with radio equipment, which could be
hooked up to a PA system on the bus for very little money.
Announcements regarding service disruption and similar news could
easily be transmitted to the whole network for no greater cost than it
can at present be transmitted to the driver only.

Hamburg's U-Bahn system has such an "on-board long-line PA" facility,
which is quite well-used to broadcast disruption information to
passengers on its trains. I'm surprised I've never seen it applied to
buses - certainly in London, where "connection" isn't a dirty word like
it is in so many other places.

The problem with any communication system primarily intended for the
driver is that you would require to arrange switching for messages so
that the driver only got the operational ones and the passengers those
intended for them. That would have to be done manually by the driver
(probably not appreciated by either the DfT or the T&GWU) or you would
need some clever recognition system that picked up a code in the
message and did the switching.

The latter option should be quite possible but would, I suspect, not
be a cheap option as a retro-fit on vehicles that were already fiited
with a radio system. You then still have to deal with the bandwidth
issue. A small number of urgent messages (most of which are sent out
as general calls to everyone) represents a very different level of
usage to specific information to individual vehicles on a regular
basis.

At the end of the day, as always is the case in all aspects of life,
you not only have to have the technology to do what you want, but you
also have to have the resources (usually cash) as well.

David Bradley on behalf of a friend

I'm not so sure about that. Speaking from over 25 years working for the
company that made the radios for Tramlink and other PT, distinguishing the
message type is pretty trivial technology probably already incorporated.
I'd be more worried about the voice quality being good enough for PA over
the radio, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 17 Nov 2004:

I'm not so sure about that. Speaking from over 25 years working for the
company that made the radios for Tramlink and other PT, distinguishing the
message type is pretty trivial technology probably already incorporated.
I'd be more worried about the voice quality being good enough for PA over
the radio, though.

A lot of modern buses do seem to have PA incorporated, so that the
driver can make announcements - notably, of course, the one who was
featured on the news last Tube strike telling her passengers that she
would open the door when it was safe to do so! I imagine it wouldn't be
beyond the realms of possibility for PA to be standard on all buses, so
that drivers could relay information given over the radio.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. Speaking from over 25 years working for the
company that made the radios for Tramlink and other PT, distinguishing the
message type is pretty trivial technology probably already incorporated.

Indeed. My 30 quid pair of PMRs have such technology - all it is
(AIUI) is a couple of DTMF tones. It appears (from what I can tell)
to be 100% reliable, or as near as makes any difference.

Providing a locally-relevant message may be more of a challenge - so
it'd need to be used sparingly - but something like major problems on
a Tube line or serious problems on a significant bus route would
probably be justified in going out "en masse".

Also, if you're sending a broadcast call to drivers to divert (for
example) around a problem, it may be worth the passengers hearing it,
in case it means getting off a stop early would help their journey!

I'd be more worried about the voice quality being good enough for PA over
the radio, though.

I've often heard "group call" announcements to drivers on buses where
they've had the radio turned up quite loud, and it's often easily
audible and discernible from at least half way back on a full-size
bus.

Neil

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(David Bradley) wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:59:08 +0000, Neil Williams
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:

The information, to which reference has been made, that would be
really useful is what is happening to any further transport system
that passengers intend to change into next. Thus a display on a bus
on an appropriate route for what is happening for example on main
line rail at Euston ,or the Northern Line at Oval, or Croydon
Tramlink at Addington Village or even another bus route at Camberwell
Green would be very useful to passengers who intended to continue
their journeys via one of those modes.

Perhaps. On smaller networks, though, it strikes me that the easy
solution to bringing disruptions to passenger attention has been
missed. Many buses are fitted with radio equipment, which could be
hooked up to a PA system on the bus for very little money.
Announcements regarding service disruption and similar news could
easily be transmitted to the whole network for no greater cost than it
can at present be transmitted to the driver only.

Hamburg's U-Bahn system has such an "on-board long-line PA" facility,
which is quite well-used to broadcast disruption information to
passengers on its trains. I'm surprised I've never seen it applied to
buses - certainly in London, where "connection" isn't a dirty word like
it is in so many other places.

The problem with any communication system primarily intended for the
driver is that you would require to arrange switching for messages so
that the driver only got the operational ones and the passengers those
intended for them. That would have to be done manually by the driver
(probably not appreciated by either the DfT or the T&GWU) or you would
need some clever recognition system that picked up a code in the
message and did the switching.

The latter option should be quite possible but would, I suspect, not
be a cheap option as a retro-fit on vehicles that were already fiited
with a radio system. You then still have to deal with the bandwidth
issue. A small number of urgent messages (most of which are sent out
as general calls to everyone) represents a very different level of
usage to specific information to individual vehicles on a regular
basis.

At the end of the day, as always is the case in all aspects of life,
you not only have to have the technology to do what you want, but you
also have to have the resources (usually cash) as well.

David Bradley on behalf of a friend

I'm not so sure about that. Speaking from over 25 years working for the
company that made the radios for Tramlink and other PT, distinguishing the
message type is pretty trivial technology probably already incorporated.
I'd be more worried about the voice quality being good enough for PA over
the radio, though.


Croydon Tramlink Control can indeed talk to the passengers on the tram
directly if necessary via the pa as can the Line Controls on the
Underground and as can the major signalling centres to passengers on
DOO trains (it is actually one of the requirements for authority to
operate DOO trains on any route).

The discussion was actually about buses and reinforces the point made
which is that technologically it is all possible BUT it will cost
money and anyone who has been involved in selling any information
solutions will know that selling to those involved in operating buses
is much more difficult than for light rail or the Underground or main
line trains.

The point therefore remains that you have to have the technology
(already exists!) BUT you also have to have the motivation to allocate
the money ('buy-in' is a very apt phrase!). The latter is not very
consistently present across the bus industry.

David Bradley on behalf of a friend