On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:42:26 +0000, Mike wrote:

In message , Matthew
Maddock writes

Or you could simply fake a plate that looks like a real one - so how will
the "automatic detection" know if a car is there or not ?

Because the device reading the microchip will not detect its existence in
the plate. Simple - if it ain't there, then it is fake!

From the transponder reader's pov, what's the difference between a car
without a transponder and an empty space without a transponder?

Mass? Temerature? Capacitance? The transponder reader would have to be
combined with a vehicle detector of some sort to prevent fraud.

"Matthew Maddock" wrote in message
...
what about car manufacturers that decide not to put them into their cars?
they cant be shut down, most of them are foreign and they cant shut down
a
car manufacturer n the UK, think of the job losses and tax losses

WTF are you on about? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
However, given your unsucessful atempts to produce sentences in English,
your comment does not come as a complete surprise.

Are you seriously suggesting that if a car manufacturer decides to produce
a car that does not confirm to UK legal standards (e.g. they decide that
the indicators do not look good on their new car, so they don't bother
putting
them on) that the government will be unable to stop these cars from being
used legally? The government sets legal standards for motor vehicles. If
manufacturers do not produce vehicles that abide by those standards,
then they cannot be used on the public highway, simple as that.

Matt
simple way round the problem , do as many truck companies do now register
your vehicle in another eu state end of problem

simple way round the problem , do as many truck companies do now register
your vehicle in another eu state end of problem

You won't be able to insure it.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:06:29 +0000, Matthew Maddock wrote:

Well, the last I heard (and there's about 45 days left in 2004) you
couldn't buy Microchipped plates.

If true it's a typical Public Sector IT project i.e. it doesn't work.

Quite likely! My wife works in the NHS and you should hear
about the amount they waste on failed IT projects.

I can believe it.

It will annoy a lot of people, and the chips will be as tamper proof as
the others, i.e. not at all. Or people will simply bust them (can you
imagine the amount of hammering electronics on a car number plate will
take).

This article is very misleading. The microchip is actually a transponder
which sends out a unique identifier when read by an appropriate device.

Chances of it continuing to work are pretty low then.

It does not in itself contain any information and is a sealed unit. There is
no programming interface, the ID is set by the manufacturer in the
manufacturing process. That unique identifier will be used to look up the
information on the computer database. The system is actually no
different from what is in existence now with automatic number plate
readers fitted to cameras and police cars.

So... what does it do that ANPR doesn't then ? I suppose it's cheaper.

These microchips are
transponders and are highly robust,

I doubt it, not at that price, not the amount of battering it will get on
a number plate. It'd be more sensible to put it in the car, harder to swap
plates for one thing.

and making a reading of the ID is
easier than reading a written number plate, which could be
mis-represented, dirty, or just hard to read due to ambient conditions.
Transponders suffer none of these problems.

Fine, but all that tells you is *that* plate is attached to *that* car.

Or you could simply fake a plate that looks like a real one - so how
will the "automatic detection" know if a car is there or not ?

Because the device reading the microchip will not detect its existence
in the plate. Simple - if it ain't there, then it is fake!

Yes, but there is a claim of automatic detection machines, not being used
for cops to see the car. To know it's a fake you have to be able to detect
the existence of the car.

How will it cope with people who are insured rather than cars - people
on company insurance ?

Because on policies that have multiple vehicles and multiple drivers the
cars are explicitly detailed on the policy.

Not always they're not.

This in nothing new, the
insurance / tax & mot status of all vehicles is already part of a
database (MID for insurance) which the police can look up live now by
reading your number plate. There are many police cars with this system
already fitted, and it is used very sucessfully.

Not that successfully.....

How will it know the driver is insured to drive the car - all it will
know is that there is *some* insurance on the car.

as above - nothing new. Just because you are stopped does not mean you
are instantly guilty, it just means that there is no record of insurance
for that vehicle (or of you being insured to drive it) if you can later
produce documentary evidence to the police then no action is taken -
this is no different from what happens now when you get a producer.

So the point of this really is just to make life easier for the Police ?

I don't like it. I think it's a backdoor tracking system, it's nowt to do
with insurance.

It can't surely store "insurance validity" - if you cancel insurance
will you detach the plates and take them in so they can be reprogrammed
?

What will happen regarding foreign registered vehicles ?

Such a miniscule problem, why worry?

It is *now*. You couldn't by Scamera detectors in Halfords till the
country went overboard with cameras.

Getting Microchips for £1.00 is no problem ; hell they are cheaper
than that. Getting something that will work and keep working for £1.00
is a different matter entirely.

I started work using transponders 15 years ago for an identification
system in which they were subject to an industrial washing process, then
temperatures of nearly 200deg C and they continued to work just fine!

Well, you might be right, but to be honest I doubt you can do this en
masse for £1.00.

Anything that helps stop scum get away with no insurance/tax/mot has to
be good. If it inconveniences legal motorists (although highly
unlikely) then so what.

Well, it doesn't seem to do anything much that ANPR does, will result in
less trafpol, and is highly dubious from a Civil Liberties POV.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:15:51 +0000, Matthew Maddock wrote:

I do believe that this sort of device is the way forward. I'm
not saying that it will be without its own set of problems, but
if one million motorists are happily driving around uninsured,
then the current system is far from acceptable. Whether
the public sector has the ability to pull it off remains to
be seen!!

Why not have a simpler system ; like an insurance disk on
the windscreen ?

Or rather than the Police trying to automate everything, they could get
off their arses and do something about it.

Matthew Maddock wrote:

Anything that helps stop scum get away with no insurance/tax/mot
has to be good. If it inconveniences legal motorists (although
highly unlikely) then so what.

How about a more radical approach - nationalise third party insurance and
increase road tax so the charge for it is included in that. The Government
would then pay out for third-party injuries and property damage from that
fund. Thus, any taxed car would be insured third party for any driver,
making it easy to check and difficult to evade. If it's taxed, and the
driver has a valid license, it's insured. As the tax database fits with
the V5 database, it's not difficult to enforce tax checks.

The insurance companies could then compete on a commercial basis on policies
that extend that to cover F&T and Fully Comp as desired, as most people
with any sense would take if they have a vehicle that is worth anything.

I'm sure I've heard of a country somewhere (can't think where) that actually
does something like this.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To reply use neil at the above domain.

In article
cks.freeserve.co.uk,
Paul Robson wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:22:13 -0800, Matthew Church wrote:

"By 2004, the DVLA aims to have merged driver, vehicle and insurance
records into a "single or virtually single" database from which the
number-plate microchips will be programmed".

http://www.geocities.com/lclane2/microchips.html

Anyone have any updates on how this plan is getting along?

Well, the last I heard (and there's about 45 days left in 2004) you
couldn't buy Microchipped plates.

If true it's a typical Public Sector IT project i.e. it doesn't work.

It will annoy a lot of people, and the chips will be as tamper proof as
the others, i.e. not at all. Or people will simply bust them (can you
imagine the amount of hammering electronics on a car number plate will
take).

Or you could simply fake a plate that looks like a real one - so how will
the "automatic detection" know if a car is there or not ?

How will it cope with people who are insured rather than cars - people on
company insurance ?

How will it know the driver is insured to drive the car - all it will
know is that there is *some* insurance on the car.

It can't surely store "insurance validity" - if you cancel insurance will
you detach the plates and take them in so they can be reprogrammed ?

What will happen regarding foreign registered vehicles ?

Getting Microchips for £1.00 is no problem ; hell they are cheaper than
that. Getting something that will work and keep working for £1.00 is a
different matter entirely.


Apparently, there are already a few police cars on the road equipped with
an automatic device which can read numberplates and determine in real
time by interrogating the DVLA computers whether the vehicle is taxed,
insured and (I think) MOTed. This is all done without intervention of the
police officer. It just sounds a warning buzzer and flashes up the number
of the offending vehicle. Apparently they have been very successful in
picking up some of the alarmingly large number of illegal vehicles. I
suspect that this will supercede the need for a numberplate microchip.

In fact, this is my solution to traffic congestion problems - a big
campaign against these vehicles could reduce traffic by about 20% at a
stroke and also make the roads a lot safer ! Perhaps they could set up a
few motorway type toll booths with similar cameras and automatic gates,
with a penalty of instant impoundment of illegal vehicles.

David

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:06:29 GMT, "Matthew Maddock"
wrote:

Or you could simply fake a plate that looks like a real one - so how will
the "automatic detection" know if a car is there or not ?

Because the device reading the microchip will not detect its existence in
the plate. Simple - if it ain't there, then it is fake!

There is nothing to stop a person from replacing the transponder on a
numberplate with a different transponder. Plus a market for fake
transponders (they are not rocket-science). A switch in the car could
make the transponder act like a James Bond type revolving numberplate

--
Cynic

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:38:56 +0000, Marc Brett
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:42:26 +0000, Mike wrote:

In message , Matthew
Maddock writes

Or you could simply fake a plate that looks like a real one - so how will
the "automatic detection" know if a car is there or not ?

Because the device reading the microchip will not detect its existence in
the plate. Simple - if it ain't there, then it is fake!

From the transponder reader's pov, what's the difference between a car
without a transponder and an empty space without a transponder?

Mass? Temerature? Capacitance? The transponder reader would have to be
combined with a vehicle detector of some sort to prevent fraud.

So what *exactly* happens if it detects that a vehicle has passed
which apparently doesn't have a working transponder?

So... what does it do that ANPR doesn't then ? I suppose it's cheaper.

No a lot as far as I can see. Note that the article was written nearly
three years ago now, and was talking about a database - which now
exists, but with NPR rather than the transponder system they suggest.

I doubt it, not at that price, not the amount of battering it will get on
a number plate. It'd be more sensible to put it in the car, harder to swap
plates for one thing.

These things are *very* robust. The ones I was using 15 years ago
were only a couple of pounds each. They are used for all sorts of
things now-a-days. I'm sure anyone who has a pet will tell you that
you can pop down to your local vets and have one of these injected
into your favourite animal. If they can stand up to animal abuse, they
can stand up to being stuck into a number plate.

Fine, but all that tells you is *that* plate is attached to *that* car.

Indeed.

Because on policies that have multiple vehicles and multiple drivers the
cars are explicitly detailed on the policy.

Not always they're not.

They should be. I used to have a motor trade policy and it was a legal
requirement that any cars which I kept on the road were registered on
the policy immediately. 18 months ago they didn't have to be, but they
do now. A lot of insurance companies can now refuse to run the period
of grace system because of this requirement (where they allow you
to back date your insurance a couple of weeks to your renewal date
if you "miss" it)

This in nothing new, the
insurance / tax & mot status of all vehicles is already part of a
database (MID for insurance) which the police can look up live now by
reading your number plate. There are many police cars with this system
already fitted, and it is used very sucessfully.

Not that successfully.....

Only because there are not enough police getting of their arses and
going out to pull cars!

How will it know the driver is insured to drive the car - all it will
know is that there is *some* insurance on the car.

as above - nothing new. Just because you are stopped does not mean you
are instantly guilty, it just means that there is no record of insurance
for that vehicle (or of you being insured to drive it) if you can later
produce documentary evidence to the police then no action is taken -
this is no different from what happens now when you get a producer.

So the point of this really is just to make life easier for the Police ?

yeah!

Getting Microchips for £1.00 is no problem ; hell they are cheaper
than that. Getting something that will work and keep working for £1.00
is a different matter entirely.

Well, you might be right, but to be honest I doubt you can do this en
masse for £1.00.


They will - they do!

Well, it doesn't seem to do anything much that ANPR does, will result in
less trafpol, and is highly dubious from a Civil Liberties POV.

I agree, the system for detecting if your car has insurance already exists,
it is already in place like it or not, it is just the transponder part of
the
scheme which has not yet been implemented.

Matt.