In message , Dave Liney
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , James
writes

Vauxhall's fine.

ROFL!

No lifts. No escalators. No disabled access/ Long rickety staircase that's
so over-crowded you have to wait several minutes to use it in the rush
hour.

At least they have put in a second staircase to platforms 7 and 8 now which
has made things better.

Not for people on all the various services that stop at the other
platforms!

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Liney
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , James
writes

Vauxhall's fine.

ROFL!

No lifts. No escalators. No disabled access/ Long rickety staircase
that's
so over-crowded you have to wait several minutes to use it in the rush
hour.

At least they have put in a second staircase to platforms 7 and 8 now
which
has made things better.

Not for people on all the various services that stop at the other
platforms!

But I don't use them so that's okay. (That is the attitude we're meant to
take isn't it? Otherwise I can't see why so many people are complaining
about the Eurostar terminal moving all of 1.9 miles across a city with a
very good public transport links.)

If you want flat interchanges then go to Waterloo as normal and get a bus to
Euston (at least three routes IIRC) and walk from there. Or you could walk
to Aldwych and get a direct bus from there. It'll take around 30 minutes
either way.

Dave.

In message , at 14:03:50 on
Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Liney remarked:
I can't see why so many people are complaining about the Eurostar
terminal moving all of 1.9 miles across a city with a very good public
transport links.)

It'll take around 30 minutes either way.

hmm, 3.8mph might be one reason!
--
Roland Perry

In message , Dave Liney
writes

But I don't use them so that's okay. (That is the attitude we're meant to
take isn't it?

No - your reasoning has failed. The argument is not about things we
don't use - it is about facilities that are currently in place and that
we do use - and that are not being replaced by anything comparable.

Otherwise I can't see why so many people are complaining
about the Eurostar terminal moving all of 1.9 miles across a city with a
very good public transport links.)

Its not the distance. Its the time and inconvenience that is the problem
- as you so very well demonstrate.

If you want flat interchanges then go to Waterloo as normal and get a bus to
Euston (at least three routes IIRC) and walk from there. Or you could walk
to Aldwych and get a direct bus from there. It'll take around 30 minutes
either way.

What's the point? Heathrow is 15 minutes drive from this part of
South-West London and flying is cheaper.

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Liney
writes

But I don't use them so that's okay. (That is the attitude we're meant to
take isn't it?

No - your reasoning has failed. The argument is not about things we don't
use - it is about facilities that are currently in place and that we do
use - and that are not being replaced by anything comparable.

It's only an extra 25-30 minutes away and the reduced journey time when the
CTRL phase 2 is opened will eat into most of this so I disagree that it is
not being replaced by anything comparable.

Otherwise I can't see why so many people are complaining
about the Eurostar terminal moving all of 1.9 miles across a city with a
very good public transport links.)

Its not the distance. Its the time and inconvenience that is the problem -
as you so very well demonstrate.

I suggest that more people have reduced journey time and inconvenience
getting to StP than have increased journey time. The idea that only people
in SWT-land use Eurostar services is a joke, yet some on this newsgroup seem
to believe it.

If you want flat interchanges then go to Waterloo as normal and get a bus
to
Euston (at least three routes IIRC) and walk from there. Or you could walk
to Aldwych and get a direct bus from there. It'll take around 30 minutes
either way.

What's the point? Heathrow is 15 minutes drive from this part of
South-West London and flying is cheaper.

So fly. Though is the cost of parking/taxis and flights really less than
that of train and Eurostar, and would you really save time when checking in
time is taken into consideration?

Of course it is then there is a good, cheap public transport solution to
getting to Paris in your area of London which means that if by moving
Eurostar's London terminus those that don't have one at present gain one.
Sounds like everyone's a winner.

Dave.

In message , Dave Liney
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

The argument is not about things we don't
use - it is about facilities that are currently in place and that we do
use - and that are not being replaced by anything comparable.

It's only an extra 25-30 minutes away

In each direction. And its not just the time but the inconvenience of
additional (and very poor) interchanges when carrying luggage - for some
people this will be four *additional* interchanges on a round trip.

and the reduced journey time when the CTRL phase 2 is opened will eat
into most of this

15 minutes - so we lose half an hour on each return journey *and* have
extra interchanges - including the delight of humping suitcases up the
stairs at Vauxhall or on and off of buses.

so I disagree that it is not being replaced by anything comparable.

That's fine. It won't be an arrangement I envisage using.

I suggest that more people have reduced journey time and inconvenience
getting to StP than have increased journey time.

Taken the population at large, that is probable. The question running
throughout this thread is ... are those cohorts of people in other parts
of the capital likely to require business trips or desire leisure breaks
in Eurostar destinations?

Like it or not, the people who NEED to make business trips to the
continent have tended to live in SWLondon partly because of the
proximity of Heathrow and more latterly Eurostar from Waterloo.

The idea that only people in SWT-land use Eurostar services is a joke,
yet some on this newsgroup seem to believe it.

You don't strengthen your case by making silly exaggerations such as
"only" people in SWT-land. If you note the very large numbers that make
the short journey across the concourse from Waterloo International to
the SWT platforms, you will see that a large proportion of Eurostar's
customers travel by SWT. That doesn't mean that "everyone" does, and it
is a joke that you make such a ridiculous exaggeration.

What's the point? Heathrow is 15 minutes drive from this part of
South-West London and flying is cheaper.

So fly.

I shall. And that is exactly the point. People like me who have made
many Eurostar journeys in the past are unlikely to continue to do so if
the service is degraded to below that obtainable from Heathrow. Eurostar
will lose that custom. Hopefully it will build up new customers - if it
doesn't then everyone can expect a poorer service.

Though is the cost of parking/taxis and flights really less than
that of train and Eurostar,

Yes, significantly so. The other half will happily drop me at Heathrow
for almost no cost since it takes only 15 minutes or so each way. I
certainly wouldn't get a similar lift from here to St Pancras, which is
seldom less than a two-hour round-trip!

and would you really save time when checking in time is taken into
consideration?

Yes. In the finely-balanced equation, that is the "edge" over flying
that Eurostar will lose. They were always more expensive, but they were
slightly quicker, more pleasant and more convenient.

They are likely to remain more expensive and even more pleasant, but
will no longer be quicker or so convenient.

Of course it is then there is a good, cheap public transport solution to
getting to Paris in your area of London which means that if by moving
Eurostar's London terminus those that don't have one at present gain one.

No. They have one already - it is called Waterloo. They don't use it
because they find having to travel across London too inconvenient.

Does that ring a bell?

Anyone with business sense (and that has seldom included Eurostar) would
realise that the way to increase trade is to increase your outlets, not
close them.

Sounds like everyone's a winner.

Clearly not

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Liney
writes

I suggest that more people have reduced journey time and inconvenience
getting to StP than have increased journey time.

Taken the population at large, that is probable. The question running
throughout this thread is ... are those cohorts of people in other parts
of the capital likely to require business trips or desire leisure breaks
in Eurostar destinations?

There is a world outside of London where people live and commute. You seem
to be suggesting that business people only live south west of London whereas
looking at arrivals in the northern termini on a weekday morning would
suggest otherwise.

Of course it is then there is a good, cheap public transport solution to
getting to Paris in your area of London which means that if by moving
Eurostar's London terminus those that don't have one at present gain one.

No. They have one already - it is called Waterloo. They don't use it
because they find having to travel across London too inconvenient.

So Waterloo is a good and cheap solution for those north of London but St
Pancras is not a good, cheap solution for those south of London, who
apparently already have a good link to the continent in Heathrow.

Does that ring a bell?

Only an IMBY alert.

Anyone with business sense (and that has seldom included Eurostar) would
realise that the way to increase trade is to increase your outlets, not
close them.

Someone should let Tesco know that they haven't any business sense then when
they opened a larger store near Huntingdon and closed their town centre
store. You could argue the ethics of so doing but it obviously made business
sense because they'd already done the same thing in Hatfield (Hertfordshire)
and many other places.

Dave

In message , Dave Liney
writes

There is a world outside of London where people live and commute. You seem
to be suggesting that business people only live south west of London whereas
looking at arrivals in the northern termini on a weekday morning would
suggest otherwise.

Why do you keep making incorrect assumptions? I said nothing about
business people living *only* in South West London. This is the second
time you have tried to make an argument out of a false assumption.

I have merely observed that when travelling by Eurostar I see very many
people continuing their journey by SWT. Obviously, not everyone does.

So Waterloo is a good and cheap solution for those north of London

No. Now you are making your third false assumption.

The interchange between St Pancras and Waterloo is poor, especially when
carrying luggage. Eurostar had the opportunity of enabling all of their
customers to avoid making that cross London journey. They have chosen
not to.

Only an IMBY alert.

Yes - IMBY is good.

What actually do you feel is wrong in suggesting that there should be
Eurostar terminals both north AND south of the city for the maximum
convenience of passengers?

--
Paul Terry

"Dave Liney" wrote:

There is a world outside of London where people live and commute. You seem
to be suggesting that business people only live south west of London whereas
looking at arrivals in the northern termini on a weekday morning would
suggest otherwise.


You have missed the point. That is, the customer profile of Eurostar
passengers from the UK would indicate that there is an exceptionally
high proportion whose journeys originate in the SWT corridor.

That's because the SWT corridor is where so many 'movers and shakers'
choose to locate. It ain't called 'the stockbroker belt' for nowt.

St Pancras is not really a viable option for those people. Instead,
they will head around the M25 for Heathrow or Gatwick.

That is the reason why I suggested a regular Waterloo-Ashford service
using former Eurostar paths and connecting with Eurostar trains at
Ashford International. I think that is the only way Eurostar can hope
to retain this large and affluent customer base.

Dave Liney wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

In message , Dave Liney
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

In message , James
writes


Vauxhall's fine.

ROFL!

No lifts. No escalators. No disabled access/ Long rickety staircase
that's
so over-crowded you have to wait several minutes to use it in the rush
hour.

At least they have put in a second staircase to platforms 7 and 8 now
which
has made things better.

Not for people on all the various services that stop at the other
platforms!


But I don't use them so that's okay. (That is the attitude we're meant to
take isn't it? Otherwise I can't see why so many people are complaining
about the Eurostar terminal moving all of 1.9 miles across a city with a
very good public transport links.)

If you want flat interchanges then go to Waterloo as normal and get a bus to
Euston (at least three routes IIRC) and walk from there. Or you could walk
to Aldwych and get a direct bus from there. It'll take around 30 minutes
either way.

Why on earth isn't there a direct bus between Waterloo and King's
Cross?! I never even noticed that before. These are arguably the two
most important railway termini. This is especially bad when there isn't
even a direct Tube route between the two.

I guess that the roadworks would foul up the reliability of any buses
serving King's Cross. I hope they extend the 59, 68 or 188 once the
construction works are complete.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London