"Dave Liney" wrote:

There is a world outside of London where people live and commute. You seem
to be suggesting that business people only live south west of London whereas
looking at arrivals in the northern termini on a weekday morning would
suggest otherwise.


You have missed the point. That is, the customer profile of Eurostar
passengers from the UK would indicate that there is an exceptionally
high proportion whose journeys originate in the SWT corridor.

That's because the SWT corridor is where so many 'movers and shakers'
choose to locate. It ain't called 'the stockbroker belt' for nowt.

St Pancras is not really a viable option for those people. Instead,
they will head around the M25 for Heathrow or Gatwick.

That is the reason why I suggested a regular Waterloo-Ashford service
using former Eurostar paths and connecting with Eurostar trains at
Ashford International. I think that is the only way Eurostar can hope
to retain this large and affluent customer base.

In message , at 10:31:58 on
Wed, 24 Nov 2004, TP remarked:
You have missed the point. That is, the customer profile of Eurostar
passengers from the UK would indicate that there is an exceptionally
high proportion whose journeys originate in the SWT corridor.

That's because the SWT corridor is where so many 'movers and shakers'
choose to locate. It ain't called 'the stockbroker belt' for nowt.

St Pancras is not really a viable option for those people. Instead,
they will head around the M25 for Heathrow or Gatwick.

Isn't that why they are building a new E* station on the M25?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:31:58 on
Wed, 24 Nov 2004, TP remarked:
You have missed the point. That is, the customer profile of Eurostar
passengers from the UK would indicate that there is an exceptionally
high proportion whose journeys originate in the SWT corridor.

That's because the SWT corridor is where so many 'movers and shakers'
choose to locate. It ain't called 'the stockbroker belt' for nowt.

St Pancras is not really a viable option for those people. Instead,
they will head around the M25 for Heathrow or Gatwick.

Isn't that why they are building a new E* station on the M25?


No, not really, because Ebbsfleet is positioned almost diametrically
opposite to the market we are discussing.

Faced with the options of St Pancras, Ebbsfleet, Heathrow and Gatwick
I think most of the SWT corridor executive types would take Heathrow
as their first choice, followed by Gatwick.

The big commercial mistake here is abandoning the easy, high value
full fare/first class customer base of the SWT corridor's movers and
shakers in favour of the £59 a time cheapskates who will allegedly
flock to St Pancras from points north.

I think Eurostar are committing a grievous error. At first the
abandonment seemed logical - concentrating all efforts at St Pancras
seems like a good idea, until you think about it.

Perhaps this decision is being forced on Eurostar because so few
passengers would choose to travel from St Pancras if Waterloo
International remained open. It is easy to see the flagship St
Pancras project becoming a seriously expensive commercial flop if the
far superior connections at Waterloo remained available.

"TP" wrote in message
...

That is the reason why I suggested a regular Waterloo-Ashford
service
using former Eurostar paths and connecting with Eurostar trains at
Ashford International. I think that is the only way Eurostar can
hope
to retain this large and affluent customer base.


I can see one problem with this.... You suggest using the former
Eurostar paths to Ashford. Surely these paths will only be "available"
up to where the current Waterloo - CTRL line meets the CTRL, as the
actual Eurostar to St Pancras will be using the paths on the CTRL.
Anyway, from Waterloo, you can cross over to Waterloo East and catch a
South Eastern service to Ashford, which, for the fast trains, are just
over an hour..

"Matt Wheeler" wrote:

I can see one problem with this.... You suggest using the former
Eurostar paths to Ashford. Surely these paths will only be "available"
up to where the current Waterloo - CTRL line meets the CTRL, as the
actual Eurostar to St Pancras will be using the paths on the CTRL.

I would be astonished if there were any shortage of paths along the
CTRL. In fact I am astonished that you even suggested there might be!

Anyway, from Waterloo, you can cross over to Waterloo East and catch a
South Eastern service to Ashford, which, for the fast trains, are just
over an hour..

True. But I am suggesting higher quality trains that make direct
timetabled connections at Ashford rather than using existing trains
that are timetabled with other purposes in mind.

"TP" wrote in message
...
"Matt Wheeler" wrote:

I can see one problem with this.... You suggest using the former
Eurostar paths to Ashford. Surely these paths will only be
"available"
up to where the current Waterloo - CTRL line meets the CTRL, as the
actual Eurostar to St Pancras will be using the paths on the CTRL.

I would be astonished if there were any shortage of paths along the
CTRL. In fact I am astonished that you even suggested there might
be!


OK, so maybe the paths will be there on the CTRL, but then some
capacity on the CTRL is going to be taken up by the slower domestic
services.

Anyway, from Waterloo, you can cross over to Waterloo East and catch
a
South Eastern service to Ashford, which, for the fast trains, are
just
over an hour..

True. But I am suggesting higher quality trains that make direct
timetabled connections at Ashford rather than using existing trains
that are timetabled with other purposes in mind.


Interesting idea, would you propose an extension on the order for the
CTRL Domestic services, or a completely new build of stock ? Either
case, since the domestic stock isn't expected until 2009, the stock
for your service won't be ready until then, or even later. What do you
do in the interim, especially given that the NoL eurostars may well
end up on the CTRL kent Domestic services. By the time your stock is
available, most passengers will have got used to either going to St
Pancras, or Ashford (or Ebbsfleet or Stratford), and therefore
wouldn't see the benefit of your proposed service.

Lets say they did keep Waterloo open for Eurostar services. How would
you split them between Waterloo and St Pancras ? Regardless of how you
split them, you will still end up with people in SWT region having to
transfer to St Pancras, as the train they need at the time they need
will run from St Pancras rather then Waterloo.

Looking at the current timetable on Eurostar's website....
1: Apart from the early morning, Brussells services are every 2 hours
(hourly early morning), even if this was moved to hourly all day, that
still means, at best, 1 train every 2 hours from each of Waterloo and
St Pancras. Is there even enough demand for an hourly brussells
service ? The current timetable would suggest not, in which case you
end up with a train every 4 hours from each of the two termini.

2: "other destinations", where do you run these from ? Its going to be
too confusing to have the disneyland train running from one station
one day/week and the other the following day/week. You could suggest a
train from each, but is there the passenger numbers to warrant doing
this ?

3: "Paris". There generally seems to be at least 1 train per hour,
sometimes two. Lets say you increase to two per hour, every hour, you
can then have 1 per hour from each. However, due to the extra time on
the current route over CTRL2, if they left London about 30 mins apart,
by the time they get to Ashford/The Tunnel, they could well be running
within a few minutes of each other, and therefore arrive in Paris
about the same time. To get even spaced arrivals at Paris you'd
probably have to have both trains leave London at the same time,
effectively turning a half hourly service into an hourly one.

In article , Matt Wheeler wrote:

"TP" wrote in message
...

Anyway, from Waterloo, you can cross over to Waterloo East and catch a
South Eastern service to Ashford, which, for the fast trains, are just
over an hour..

And pay another £16.70 for a return ticket from Waterloo East to Ashford,
followed by the full Eurostar fare from Ashford?

TP wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 24 Nov 2004:

"Dave Liney" wrote:

There is a world outside of London where people live and commute. You seem
to be suggesting that business people only live south west of London whereas
looking at arrivals in the northern termini on a weekday morning would
suggest otherwise.


You have missed the point. That is, the customer profile of Eurostar
passengers from the UK would indicate that there is an exceptionally
high proportion whose journeys originate in the SWT corridor.

To be absolutely fair, could that not be because Eurostar, so far, has
been more convenient for those whose journeys so originate, and with the
move to St P that demographic might change?
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 22 November 2004

Mrs Redboots wrote:

To be absolutely fair, could that not be because Eurostar, so far, has
been more convenient for those whose journeys so originate, and with the
move to St P that demographic might change?


Yes, indeed it could. But the fact remains that the SWT catchment,
more than any other, includes a very much higher proportion of the
movers and shakers who are likely to pay full fares or premium fares
(first class) on Eurostar.

No doubt St Pancras International will open doors to many who might
currently be dissuaded by the difficulty of getting to Waterloo
International, but they are far more likely to be travelling on
cheaper tickets. I am in that category, and am much more likely to
use Eurostar as a result. However, that doesn't prevent me from
seeing that the decision to abandon Waterloo International will tend
to hurt the customer base that Eurostar needs most, that is, not me!

;-)

TP writes:

That is the reason why I suggested a regular Waterloo-Ashford service
using former Eurostar paths and connecting with Eurostar trains at
Ashford International. I think that is the only way Eurostar can hope
to retain this large and affluent customer base.

I still can't see what's wrong with taking the new super-glamorous
Jubilee line extension from Waterloo to the new super-glamorous
Eurostar station at Stratford. It'll only be a few stops, is 4
billion quid's worth of underground line too downmarket for this
affluent customer base or something?
--
-- Chris.