In message , at
23:11:37 on Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Richard J.
remarked:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...605206-01.hcsp

The Essex (Boroughs of Colchester, Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock,
and District of Tendring)(Structural, Boundary and Electoral
Changes) Order 1996 - S.I. 1996 No. 1875

This Order was made on 18 July 1996. The Order created two
continuing unitary authorities of Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock,
which are associated with Essex for ceremonial purposes.

As catching an E* is clearly some kind of ceremony (involving officials,
handing over passports and tickets etc), can we draw a veil over the
earlier red herrings and go back to wondering things like "would a
resident of Thurrock really get a local train [1] all the way to
Stratford, rather than hopping across the river to Ebbsfleet"?

[1] Which as far as I can see involves one change and a minimum journey
time of 44 minutes.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Roland Perry wrote:

As catching an E* is clearly some kind of ceremony (involving officials,
handing over passports and tickets etc), can we draw a veil over the
earlier red herrings and go back to wondering things like "would a
resident of Thurrock really get a local train [1] all the way to
Stratford, rather than hopping across the river to Ebbsfleet"?

No.

The reason we can't is because it's obvious - it would be madness to take
the train if the car is faster.

The argument we were having before all this county business blew up was
really a failure to agree on what 'Essex' means: you think of it as the
bit where you live (i'm guessing), and i think of it as the bit where i
grew up - let's call them Inner and Outer Essex. People in Inner Essex,
like this resident of Thurrock you mention, will probably drive to
Ebbsfleet, or even to Ashford, or, if they need to use public transport,
take some sort of coach there. People in Outer Essex are more likely to
come to London, and either change at Stratford, or, if their train doesn't
stop there, go from Liverpool Street to either King's Cross or Stratford.

I'd be interested to know just how many people are in the catchment areas
the two options. I suppose Inner Essex (defined here as that part of Essex
from which Kent is a better option than London!) is the most densely
populated part of the county, given its proximity to London, but it's
geographically quite small, i think. Also, i don't know exactly where the
boundary of the areas is; you seem to think Kent would be a better option
from Chelmsford, but i think the existence of fast trains means London
would be competitive. I'm also not sure about the Harlow area; presumably,
the good connections to Liverpool Street, and the impending West Anglia
services direct to Stratford, would put it in the London basin. The thing
to do would be to sit down for every town and work out the times by train
and car - doable using the NR journey planner and the AA website, i
suppose. Not entirely sure i can be bothered, though.

tom

--
That's no moon!

In message ,
at 12:57:38 on Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Tom Anderson
remarked:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Roland Perry wrote:

As catching an E* is clearly some kind of ceremony (involving officials,
handing over passports and tickets etc), can we draw a veil over the
earlier red herrings and go back to wondering things like "would a
resident of Thurrock really get a local train [1] all the way to
Stratford, rather than hopping across the river to Ebbsfleet"?

No.

The reason we can't is because it's obvious - it would be madness to take
the train if the car is faster.

The argument we were having before all this county business blew up was
really a failure to agree on what 'Essex' means: you think of it as the
bit where you live (i'm guessing), and i think of it as the bit where i
grew up - let's call them Inner and Outer Essex.

I spent a long time in Essex, but live elsewhere now. I grew up with
Romford and Ilford as "genuine" bits of Essex, but these days I think
that psychologically most people regard inside the M25 as "London".

Meanwhile, there's not much population north of the A12, and past Witham
it's more realistic that a train would be faster than a car.

Which leaves the area I was talking about originally.

you seem to think Kent would be a better option from Chelmsford, but i
think the existence of fast trains means London would be competitive.

Yes, it's borderline, but there are two other factors: most Chelmsford
people live in big estates around the edge of town - getting to the
station is a pain, and there's no long term parking at all. And it's a
very car-orientated place, so people are likely to head for the A12 as a
reflex action.

I'm also not sure about the Harlow area; presumably,
the good connections to Liverpool Street, and the impending West Anglia
services direct to Stratford, would put it in the London basin.

But again, the station isn't the most accessible one in the world, and
the M25 beckons for getting to Kent.
--
Roland Perry

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Roland Perry wrote:

As catching an E* is clearly some kind of ceremony (involving officials,
handing over passports and tickets etc), can we draw a veil over the
earlier red herrings and go back to wondering things like "would a
resident of Thurrock really get a local train [1] all the way to
Stratford, rather than hopping across the river to Ebbsfleet"?

No.

The reason we can't is because it's obvious - it would be madness to take
the train if the car is faster.

The argument we were having before all this county business blew up was
really a failure to agree on what 'Essex' means: you think of it as the
bit where you live (i'm guessing), and i think of it as the bit where i
grew up - let's call them Inner and Outer Essex. People in Inner Essex,
like this resident of Thurrock you mention, will probably drive to
Ebbsfleet, or even to Ashford, or, if they need to use public transport,
take some sort of coach there. People in Outer Essex are more likely to
come to London, and either change at Stratford, or, if their train doesn't
stop there, go from Liverpool Street to either King's Cross or Stratford.


Except that people in the innermost part of inner Essex - the Greater
London
part - would probably also find Stratford more convenient. I grew up
in
Romford, and I'm sure that it'd be easier via Stratford (one train, 20
minutes) than Ebbsfleet (at least a 40 minute car journey).

What used to be Essex kind of splits into three now I think: the home
counties bit in the northern half; the Essex girl joke bit in the
South; and the greater East End bit inside the M25, which is like a
Londonized version of the southern half of the county.



Jonn

In message , at
10:26:26 on Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Jonn Elledge
remarked:
Except that people in the innermost part of inner Essex - the Greater
London part - would probably also find Stratford more convenient. I
grew up in Romford, and I'm sure that it'd be easier via Stratford (one
train, 20 minutes) than Ebbsfleet (at least a 40 minute car journey).

Yes, some people are lucky to live near convenient public transport
links. A lot of people in Essex don't - hence the proliferation of cars.
--
Roland Perry

On 3 Dec 2004, Jonn Elledge wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
...

What used to be Essex kind of splits into three now I think: the home
counties bit in the northern half; the Essex girl joke bit in the South;
and the greater East End bit inside the M25, which is like a Londonized
version of the southern half of the county.

It's due to split further, to generate four more partitions. The county
plan was drawn up by some chap called Dante, i understand.

Thanks for describing Outer Essex as 'home counties', by the way; i would
have said 'country bumpkin' myself.

tom

--
I'm angry, but not Milk and Cheese angry. -- Mike Froggatt