Steve Peake wrote:
Hounslow council has begun pushing for an alternative routing for
crossrail.

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/hm181104.htm#councilsubmits

Stable doors and horses come to mind, but I wondered if anyone thinks this
stands any chance at all?

I was always in favour of the Richmond-Kingston route, but the Nimby's
killed that one.

Steve

Way too late. Plus I doubt they want all the performance pollution from
the NLL and SWT infecting Crossrail. They'll just have to hang on for
Crossrail 2...

Cross-posted to u.t.london.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Steve Peake wrote:
Hounslow council has begun pushing for an alternative routing for
crossrail.

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/hm181104.htm#councilsubmits

Stable doors and horses come to mind, but I wondered if anyone
thinks this stands any chance at all?

I was always in favour of the Richmond-Kingston route, but the
Nimby's killed that one.

Way too late.

Note that it's an *additional*, not alternative, route to make use of
some of the 58% of the peak westbound trains that would otherwise
reverse at Paddington, which might be considered a waste of an expensive
tunnel through central London.

Plus I doubt they want all the performance pollution
from the NLL and SWT infecting Crossrail.

But Crossrail seem happy to suffer pollution from SET and 'one'/Great
Eastern and still run 24 tph from the east. The Hounslow proposal is
4tph Crossrail sharing the line with 4tph NLL or 4tph SWT. Crossrail
would still have 10tph reversing at Paddington, which could help to soak
up any performance pollution from other TOCs.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

Steve Peake wrote:

Hounslow council has begun pushing for an alternative routing for
crossrail.

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/hm181104.htm#councilsubmits

Stable doors and horses come to mind, but I wondered if anyone
thinks this stands any chance at all?

I was always in favour of the Richmond-Kingston route, but the
Nimby's killed that one.

Way too late.

Note that it's an *additional*, not alternative, route to make use of
some of the 58% of the peak westbound trains that would otherwise
reverse at Paddington, which might be considered a waste of an expensive
tunnel through central London.

Fair enough; no-one really wants to see the tunnel "wasted", and
reversals at Paddington (or rather Westbourne Park) could create trouble
by themselves. But wouldn't it be quite expensive to extend just 4tph
through to an extra western destination?

Plus I doubt they want all the performance pollution
from the NLL and SWT infecting Crossrail.

But Crossrail seem happy to suffer pollution from SET and 'one'/Great
Eastern and still run 24 tph from the east. The Hounslow proposal is
4tph Crossrail sharing the line with 4tph NLL or 4tph SWT. Crossrail
would still have 10tph reversing at Paddington, which could help to soak
up any performance pollution from other TOCs.

The performance pollution isn't as much from Great Eastern as they take
over the majority of the stopping services on that line. SET could be a
problem, but a significant number of trains on that branch terminate at
Abbey Wood.

Wasn't one of the problems highlighted in the Montague report that it
was unrealistic to expect 24tph from different branches to arrive at the
Crossrail/Network Rail interface on time for the appropriate path?
Removing the Richmond branch significantly reduced that problem,
allowing a more reliable frequency through the central tunnel. With the
Hounslow branch, Crossrail is interfacing with both Silverlink, SWT, and
quite a number of freights too (I think - do they use that section or do
they just use the WLL?).

I think proposals to improve NLL frequency to 6tph would also have an
adverse effect on both NLL and Crossrail performance if they shared
tracks. NLL performance is bad enough as it is, even on Sundays at 2tph.

On the other hand, central Acton could do with a decent rail service to
central London, and I'm sure the denizens of Hounslow and Brentford
would enjoy direct services to Tottenham Court Road, Liverpool St and/or
Canary Wharf. But there must be implications for SWT Hounslow Loop
services - for example, a decimation of passenger numbers to the City on
those services might cause SWT to divert some via Richmond instead,
lowering frequency on the loop and causing the non-Crossrail stations
like Kew Bridge and Chiswick to lose out.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...


The performance pollution .....
Please explain performance pollution.

Kevin

Kevin wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...


The performance pollution .....

Please explain performance pollution.

When delays on one network (say South East Trains) can propagate through
to others by delaying trains on transit between networks (i.e.
Crossrail). For example, if all London-bound Crossrail trains from
Ebbsfleet are delayed because of signalling problems at Abbey Wood, they
can in turn delay other trains from the Shenfield branch when they
arrive at Liverpool St late; if the problems are severe enough, delays
can even spread to networks at the other end, i.e. Great Western.

This is a significant issue with Thameslink being "performance-polluted"
with delays from Southern; the evidence is clear now that northern
Thameslink trains are starting at St Pancras and performance appears to
be very good.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/hm181104.htm#councilsubmits

But wouldn't it be quite expensive to extend just 4tph
through to an extra western destination?

Not at all. If the East London Southern extensions stack up, there's no
obvious reason this shouldn't, unless there is no capacity on one of the
lines used.

With the Hounslow branch, Crossrail is interfacing
with both Silverlink, SWT, and quite a number of
freights too (I think - do they use that section or do
they just use the WLL?).

They use the NLL, leaving by the two curves from South Acton to the Kew
Bridge line.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

This is a significant issue with Thameslink being "performance-polluted"
with delays from Southern; the evidence is clear now that northern
Thameslink trains are starting at St Pancras and performance appears to
be very good.

I've heard that the northern section seems to be pretty good but what is the
general opinion on the southern section? The limited exposure I have to it
suggests that performance improved for couple of months but this month
things have been a bit ropey.

John Rowland wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/hm181104.htm#councilsubmits

But wouldn't it be quite expensive to extend just 4tph
through to an extra western destination?

Not at all. If the East London Southern extensions stack up, there's no
obvious reason this shouldn't, unless there is no capacity on one of the
lines used.

Point taken.

With the Hounslow branch, Crossrail is interfacing
with both Silverlink, SWT, and quite a number of
freights too (I think - do they use that section or do
they just use the WLL?).

They use the NLL, leaving by the two curves from South Acton to the Kew
Bridge line.

Last time I used the NLL from Richmond, one train was cancelled and the
next was very late - and this was during the 2tph Sunday service. I
can't see how it will cope with the proposed frequency boost to 6tph on
weekdays, let alone another 4tph from Crossrail.

Other than that I think it's a decent idea - I'm just unconvinced that
the government will pay any attention now that the route is basically
settled upon. Future additions can't be ruled out though - but I doubt
we'd see them considered until after Crossrail has started running and
the effect of reversing 14tph at Paddington has been experienced.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London