Since reading various threads about Gatwick and the ELL, I've started to
wonder - has anyone considered combining them with a service from
Gatwick Airport to Liverpool Street (stopping all stations via
Forest Hill)? The idea might seem strange at first, but it does appear
to have a lot going for it - giving Surrey and South London direct
access to Liverpool Street station and E1 would greatly increase
connectivity, and for many airport passengers with heavy luggage, the
convenience would more than make up for the extra journey time (though
obviously those in a hurry would continue to use Thameslink).

I think the demand for such a service would be high, but have I
overestimated it? And if demand were high, would they be able to run
enough trains to accommodate it?

The obvious problem with such a route is the infrastructure
requirements. But what exactly would such a service require? I can think
of the following things:
Restoration of the Shoreditch - Liverpool Street connection, providing
platform capacity at Liverpool Street (Crossrail could do that), extra
platforms at Gatwick and/or grade separation N of Gatwick (since the
existing arrangements are clearly inadequate), conversion of the ELL to
3rd rail (as is already planned UIVMM) and probably a signalling
upgrade.

Can anyone think of anything else that would need to be done?

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Since reading various threads about Gatwick and the ELL, I've started to
wonder - has anyone considered combining them with a service from
Gatwick Airport to Liverpool Street (stopping all stations via
Forest Hill)? The idea might seem strange at first, but it does appear
to have a lot going for it - giving Surrey and South London direct
access to Liverpool Street station and E1 would greatly increase
connectivity, and for many airport passengers with heavy luggage, the
convenience would more than make up for the extra journey time (though
obviously those in a hurry would continue to use Thameslink).

I think the demand for such a service would be high, but have I
overestimated it? And if demand were high, would they be able to run
enough trains to accommodate it?

I'd have thought that the easterly connections with Crossrail, linking
with the current Thameslink services would provide most of the
inner-suburban connectivity for such a route, and the number of people
going between far Essex and East Anglia and Sussex, for whom an extra
connection is offputting are few in number.

Robin

In article , Aidan Stanger
writes
Restoration of the Shoreditch - Liverpool Street connection, providing
platform capacity at Liverpool Street (Crossrail could do that),

Neither the connection nor the platform capacity is the issue. The
problem with Liverpool Street is that the 6 approach tracks are at
capacity in the peaks.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message ...
Since reading various threads about Gatwick and the ELL, I've started to
wonder - has anyone considered combining them with a service from
Gatwick Airport to Liverpool Street (stopping all stations via
Forest Hill)? The idea might seem strange at first, but it does appear
to have a lot going for it - giving Surrey and South London direct
access to Liverpool Street station and E1 would greatly increase
connectivity, and for many airport passengers with heavy luggage, the
convenience would more than make up for the extra journey time (though
obviously those in a hurry would continue to use Thameslink).

I think the demand for such a service would be high, but have I
overestimated it? And if demand were high, would they be able to run
enough trains to accommodate it?

The obvious problem with such a route is the infrastructure
requirements. But what exactly would such a service require? I can think
of the following things:
Restoration of the Shoreditch - Liverpool Street connection, providing
platform capacity at Liverpool Street (Crossrail could do that), extra
platforms at Gatwick and/or grade separation N of Gatwick (since the
existing arrangements are clearly inadequate), conversion of the ELL to
3rd rail (as is already planned UIVMM) and probably a signalling
upgrade.

Can anyone think of anything else that would need to be done?

These "wouldn't it be great if we had a train from here to there"
arguements never cease to amaze me. Presumabley somebody waves a magic
wand and hey presto ther is all the extra capacity for this.
Aren't doing away with the dedicated Gatwick Express for the reason of
overcrowding on the Brighton line. I am not sure how many people from
Sussex would want to end up in Liverpool St.
Kevin

"Kevin" wrote in message
om...

These "wouldn't it be great if we had a train from here to there"
arguements never cease to amaze me. Presumabley somebody waves a magic
wand and hey presto ther is all the extra capacity for this.

Kevin

Agree - where the translation of here is 'where I live' and there is 'where
I often go'. The facts are that nearly the whole railway was built where
the passengers of the mid 1800s wanted to go.

Paul

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
writes

Restoration of the Shoreditch - Liverpool Street connection, providing
platform capacity at Liverpool Street (Crossrail could do that),

Neither the connection nor the platform capacity is the issue. The
problem with Liverpool Street is that the 6 approach tracks are at
capacity in the peaks.

OK, the approach capacity not the platform capacity. Crossrail could
still solve it.

As for the connection, it could be a problem depending on how they
construct the ELL-NLL link.

Kevin wrote:

(Aidan Stanger) wrote...
Since reading various threads about Gatwick and the ELL, I've started to
wonder - has anyone considered combining them with a service from
Gatwick Airport to Liverpool Street (stopping all stations via
Forest Hill)? The idea might seem strange at first, but it does appear
to have a lot going for it - giving Surrey and South London direct
access to Liverpool Street station and E1 would greatly increase
connectivity, and for many airport passengers with heavy luggage, the
convenience would more than make up for the extra journey time (though
obviously those in a hurry would continue to use Thameslink).

I think the demand for such a service would be high, but have I
overestimated it? And if demand were high, would they be able to run
enough trains to accommodate it?

The obvious problem with such a route is the infrastructure
requirements. But what exactly would such a service require? I can think
of the following things:
Restoration of the Shoreditch - Liverpool Street connection, providing
platform capacity at Liverpool Street (Crossrail could do that), extra
platforms at Gatwick and/or grade separation N of Gatwick (since the
existing arrangements are clearly inadequate), conversion of the ELL to
3rd rail (as is already planned UIVMM) and probably a signalling
upgrade.

Can anyone think of anything else that would need to be done?

These "wouldn't it be great if we had a train from here to there"
arguements never cease to amaze me. Presumabley somebody waves a magic
wand and hey presto ther is all the extra capacity for this.

Absolutely not! The main objective of this thread is to establish what
would be required to provide the extra capacity.

Aren't doing away with the dedicated Gatwick Express for the reason of
overcrowding on the Brighton line.

IIRC they're not actually doing away with it completely, but they are
cutting back the service. It is obvious that capacity there is
inadequate, and if you've read my posting properly you'd've noticed that
I acknowledge the problem and include two possible fixes on my list of
the things that would be required.

I am not sure how many people from Sussex would want to end up in Liverpool St

And that is the other objective of this thread: to try to establish
whether or not there would be the demand. I'm pretty sure a service from
East Croydon could be quite successful, as the interchange with the
Thameslink and SouthCentral services would make it more popular than the
planned service to West Croydon (far more so if it actually went to
Liverpool Street). PRAR pointed out a few weeks ago that terminating the
trains at East Croydon could be a big problem and it was better to run
the service through to somewhere else. Gatwick is one option, and it has
the advantage that demand is high over the whole length of the route for
much of the day, and a greater proportion of passengers would be willing
to put up with relatively slow journeys for the sake of convenience.

"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ...

I'd have thought that the easterly connections with Crossrail, linking
with the current Thameslink services would provide most of the
inner-suburban connectivity for such a route, and the number of people
going between far Essex and East Anglia and Sussex, for whom an extra
connection is offputting are few in number.

To build on the last-mentioned point, surely a lot of air travellers
from Essex & East Anglia would be better off going from Stansted
rather than Gatwick?

David E. Belcher

David E. Belcher wrote:

To build on the last-mentioned point, surely a lot of air travellers
from Essex & East Anglia would be better off going from Stansted
rather than Gatwick?

David E. Belcher

Good point....
Extend the Braintree line to Stansted, and build a second spur onto the
line from the Kelvedon direction.

--
Darren

http://photos.darrenjohnson.co.uk/
http://www.darrenjohnson.co.uk/

Paul Scott wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 30 Nov 2004:


"Kevin" wrote in message
. com...

These "wouldn't it be great if we had a train from here to there"
arguements never cease to amaze me. Presumabley somebody waves a magic
wand and hey presto ther is all the extra capacity for this.

Kevin

Agree - where the translation of here is 'where I live' and there is 'where
I often go'. The facts are that nearly the whole railway was built where
the passengers of the mid 1800s wanted to go.

Paul

All the same, it is maddening when a definite physical railway-line
exists between the two places that you want to go, but "it is not a
route" so that you have to change trains. I'm thinking, particularly,
of the journey between Brixton and Streatham which would be physically
possible to do on one train, but as "it is not a route" you have to
change at Herne Hill, which makes the journey uneconomic in terms of
time, and better done by bus.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 28 November 2004