Hi all,

Three mind-numbingly obscure and/or dull questions about loading gauge:

Firstly, what effect does wider gauge have on passenger operations? Are
all passenger trains built to W6, or are there wider trains to take
advantage of the bigger gauge on (some of) the main lines?

What gauge is Crossrail being built to? Mainline, i know, but which? W6?
W6A? Something wider? AFAICT, the GW is W8 all the way to Paddington, and
the GE is W8 to Forest Gate or thereabouts (BICBW), so there could be a
vague case for more space, if the first question has the appropriate
answer.

What's the loading gauge of the subsurface lines? I read somewhere that
it's the same as National Rail (don't know which); this must be true for
some of it, since there were plans to run mainline services over bits of
it (Liverpool Street to, er, somewhere along the north side), but it must
vary, since not all the current LU trains can fit down all bits of it (in
fact, AIUI, _no_ current subsurface stock can get everywhere). What is the
least common denominator gauge like? Presumably, this is what the proposed
single subsurface stock will be built to; are they going to have to be
titchy? Are they going to regauge bits of the network instead?

Thanks,
tom

--
Just because Congresspeople do it, doesn't mean it's right. -- Ian York

In article ,
Tom Anderson writes
What's the loading gauge of the subsurface lines?

Varies.

I read somewhere that
it's the same as National Rail (don't know which);

I don't think so - I believe that A60/62 stock is too wide for parts of
the NR network.

this must be true for
some of it, since there were plans to run mainline services over bits of
it (Liverpool Street to, er, somewhere along the north side),

You might be able to get some NR stock that way, but there will be
various issues to resolve. In particular, it tends to be longer and will
therefore have problems on curves.

AIUI, _no_ current subsurface stock can get everywhere).

I can't think of anywhere that C stock isn't allowed to go. There's a
limit of 4 cars when in service on the ELL, but that's all.

What is the
least common denominator gauge like? Presumably, this is what the proposed
single subsurface stock will be built to; are they going to have to be
titchy? Are they going to regauge bits of the network instead?

D stock isn't any wider than C stock; it's limited where it can go
because:
* some stations (like Bayswater) can't fit 6*D though they can fit 6*C;
* the suspension has been stiffened and it's therefore only allowed on
track maintained appropriately (which, off-Line, means Acton Town to
Northfields Depot).

My understanding is that the new stock will be built to C/D loading
gauge, running in different lengths: 4 cars for the ELL, 6 cars for
Circle, H&C, and Wimbleware services, 7 cars for the District via Tower
Hill, and 8 cars for the Metropolitan.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For NR you could look at GE/GN8573 on the RSSB website
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk

John


In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In article ,
Tom Anderson writes
What's the loading gauge of the subsurface lines?

Varies.

I read somewhere that
it's the same as National Rail (don't know which);

I don't think so - I believe that A60/62 stock is too wide for parts of
the NR network.

this must be true for
some of it, since there were plans to run mainline services over bits of
it (Liverpool Street to, er, somewhere along the north side),

You might be able to get some NR stock that way, but there will be
various issues to resolve. In particular, it tends to be longer and will
therefore have problems on curves.

AIUI, _no_ current subsurface stock can get everywhere).

I can't think of anywhere that C stock isn't allowed to go. There's a
limit of 4 cars when in service on the ELL, but that's all.

What is the
least common denominator gauge like? Presumably, this is what the proposed
single subsurface stock will be built to; are they going to have to be
titchy? Are they going to regauge bits of the network instead?

D stock isn't any wider than C stock; it's limited where it can go
because:
* some stations (like Bayswater) can't fit 6*D though they can fit 6*C;
* the suspension has been stiffened and it's therefore only allowed on
track maintained appropriately (which, off-Line, means Acton Town to
Northfields Depot).

My understanding is that the new stock will be built to C/D loading
gauge, running in different lengths: 4 cars for the ELL, 6 cars for
Circle, H&C, and Wimbleware services, 7 cars for the District via Tower
Hill, and 8 cars for the Metropolitan.


--
John Alexander,

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article ,
Tom Anderson writes

What's the loading gauge of the subsurface lines?

Varies.

I should have known!

AIUI, _no_ current subsurface stock can get everywhere).

â I can't think of anywhere that C stock isn't allowed to go. There's a
limit of 4 cars when in service on the ELL, but that's all.

It was once (in ) said:

"[...] 6-car C-Stock. These certainly have clearance issues in the
Dagenham area (meaning no through routing Hammersmith Met - Upminster),
and may have on the Richmond/Ealing branches."

I take it this is not in fact the case.

Aha. A bit of googling turns up
http://billz1064.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=General&action=display&num=1084723 959;
there used to be some sort of problem at Dagenham East, which meant the
trains had to go through the station slowly or something, but this is no
longer a problem.

What is the least common denominator gauge like? Presumably, this is
what the proposed single subsurface stock will be built to; are they
going to have to be titchy? Are they going to regauge bits of the
network instead?

My understanding is that the new stock will be built to C/D loading
gauge, running in different lengths: 4 cars for the ELL, 6 cars for
Circle, H&C, and Wimbleware services, 7 cars for the District via Tower
Hill, and 8 cars for the Metropolitan.

Okay. I assume it's not possible (or at least easy) to add and remove cars
to a train; that means there won't actually be a single fleet for the
whole subsurface system, since trains will be still be differentiated by
their length (eg 8-car sets will only be able to run on the Met).

Thanks for all the info.

tom
--
I'm angry, but not Milk and Cheese angry. -- Mike Froggatt

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

D stock isn't any wider than C stock; it's limited where it can go
because:
* some stations (like Bayswater) can't fit 6*D though they can fit
6*C;
* the suspension has been stiffened and it's therefore only allowed
on track maintained appropriately (which, off-Line, means Acton
Town to Northfields Depot).

LOL! You can't have travelled on the District for several years if you
think that D-stock can only run on track that has been "maintained
appropriately".

Seriously, Tube Prune's website* says "The poor quality of LU track has
led to cracking in the bogie frames and some derailments due to the
stiffness of the frame. The D Stock bogies are being replaced by new
bogies similar to those supplied by Adtranz for the new Northern Line
1995 Tube Stock. These bogies have flexible frames designed to overcome
the dreadful state of LU trackwork." That page was last updated a year
ago, so maybe the bogie changes are now complete. Can anyone confirm
this?

* http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In article ,
Tom Anderson writes
I can't think of anywhere that C stock isn't allowed to go. There's a
limit of 4 cars when in service on the ELL, but that's all.

"[...] 6-car C-Stock. These certainly have clearance issues in the
Dagenham area (meaning no through routing Hammersmith Met - Upminster),
and may have on the Richmond/Ealing branches."
[...]
there used to be some sort of problem at Dagenham East, which meant the
trains had to go through the station slowly or something,

I think that was a purely temporary issue.

My understanding is that the new stock will be built to C/D loading
gauge, running in different lengths: 4 cars for the ELL, 6 cars for
Circle, H&C, and Wimbleware services, 7 cars for the District via Tower
Hill, and 8 cars for the Metropolitan.
Okay. I assume it's not possible (or at least easy) to add and remove cars
to a train;

I suspect that there'll be cab cars and non-cab cars (the trains are
supposed to be walk-through), and cutting a formation to add or remove
the latter will be relatively easy. There'd be no great need in normal
service, though.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Richard J." wrote in message
.uk...
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

D stock isn't any wider than C stock; it's limited where it can go
because:
* some stations (like Bayswater) can't fit 6*D though they can fit
6*C;
* the suspension has been stiffened and it's therefore only allowed
on track maintained appropriately (which, off-Line, means Acton
Town to Northfields Depot).

LOL! You can't have travelled on the District for several years if you
think that D-stock can only run on track that has been "maintained
appropriately".

Seriously, Tube Prune's website* says "The poor quality of LU track has
led to cracking in the bogie frames and some derailments due to the
stiffness of the frame. The D Stock bogies are being replaced by new
bogies similar to those supplied by Adtranz for the new Northern Line
1995 Tube Stock. These bogies have flexible frames designed to overcome
the dreadful state of LU trackwork." That page was last updated a year
ago, so maybe the bogie changes are now complete. Can anyone confirm
this?

* http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)


Yes, the D Stock bogie replacement is now complete. The D Stock is now
starting a body refurbishment. For other queries on this topic, the new SSL
Stock has been designed to the A Stock gauge and Metronet are arguing with
Bombardier over it because Metronet don't want to pay for all the
infrastructure work necessary to allow the new stock to run all over the
SSL. Cars are standard 3 d/doors/side with cabs at the ends of trains only.
Wide walk-through ends will be provided unless LU insist on end doors as per
their standards.

No of trains will be:
72 x 8-cars for the Metropolitan from 2009

40 x 6-cars for Circle & H&C from 2012

78 x 7-cars for District from 2014

Tubeprune

Tubeprune wrote:

Yes, the D Stock bogie replacement is now complete. The D
Stock is now starting a body refurbishment. For other
queries on this topic, the new SSL Stock has been designed
to the A Stock gauge and Metronet are arguing with Bombardier
over it because Metronet don't want to pay for all the
infrastructure work necessary to allow the new stock to run
all over the SSL. Cars are standard 3 d/doors/side with cabs
at the ends of trains only. Wide walk-through ends will be
provided unless LU insist on end doors as per their standards.

Thanks for letting us know about this. Will you be updating your
excellent site soon to share this new knowledge?


No of trains will be:
72 x 8-cars for the Metropolitan from 2009

What sort of seats will these trains have? Presumably the stock
will all be the exact same, differing only in seating.


40 x 6-cars for Circle & H&C from 2012

78 x 7-cars for District from 2014
Again, what will the seating arrangements be?

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...

What sort of seats will these trains have? Presumably the stock
will all be the exact same, differing only in seating.

Seating will be the same on three versions. There will be a lot less seats
than now because LU insists on having 1000mm between seats for wheelchairs
to pass between them. So, you will have to stand every day because someone
might want to have a wheelchair on the train once in the next 35 years!

Tubeprune

Tubeprune wrote:
"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
oups.com...

What sort of seats will these trains have? Presumably the stock
will all be the exact same, differing only in seating.

Seating will be the same on three versions. There will be a lot
less seats than now because LU insists on having 1000mm between
seats for wheelchairs to pass between them. So, you will have to
stand every day because someone might want to have a wheelchair
on the train once in the next 35 years!

With that kind of thinking, one might as well transfer ownership of the
fast lines from Harrow North to Moor Park, and hence to Amersham, to
Network Rail! Bucks commuters won't stand for nasty transverse seating
that crams them together like C-stock cattle; they complained when the
T stock went away and they'll complain even louder when the A stock
goes away. Not that Chiltern would mind, of course...

Have LU lots their minds? Or is it just the useless nanny-state H&S
folks pushing this rubbish?