Michael Bell wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Dec 2004:


When the channel tunnel was started, that thoroughly commercial organisation,
British Railways, started a programme of bringing goods waggons into this
country by ship to build up traffic for when the tunnel opened. The tunnel
took longer to build than planned, so this built up to quite a traffic; I saw
a lot of Italian goods vehicles in Luton. But BR didn't live to harvest the
fruits of its labours - and were there any?

Oh, I think so! I had a ten-minute wait at Denmark Hill the other day,
changing trains, and there must have been at least 2 goods trains in
either direction, including a huge car-train. You never used to see
them at all, and now it's almost rare not to!

It's ironical to remember how the pundits said that the building of the
channel tunnel would bring vast traffic and make British Railways safe. But
as I understand it, goods traffic, like passenger traffic, has been
disappointing. It's strange how things turn out, not the opposite of what was
expected, but at a slant that makes the forecasts and their negations both
irrelevant.

It may have been disappointing, but it certainly still exists! And I'm
not sure how disappointing passenger traffic is, since they run the
shuttle service every 20 minutes or thereabouts, and 4 passenger tph
through the tunnel - which surely they wouldn't do by now if passenger
levels didn't warrant it?
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

It may have been disappointing, but it certainly still exists! And I'm
not sure how disappointing passenger traffic is, since they run the
shuttle service every 20 minutes or thereabouts, and 4 passenger tph
through the tunnel - which surely they wouldn't do by now if passenger
levels didn't warrant it?

I see that Eurotunnel are reducing the number of lorry shuttles
considerably, as the increased charges are driving many operators back to
the ferries.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

It may have been disappointing, but it certainly still exists! And I'm
not sure how disappointing passenger traffic is, since they run the
shuttle service every 20 minutes or thereabouts, and 4 passenger tph
through the tunnel - which surely they wouldn't do by now if passenger
levels didn't warrant it?

I see that Eurotunnel are reducing the number of lorry shuttles
considerably, as the increased charges are driving many operators back to
the ferries.


In other words, Eurotunnel aren't making enough money out of it. Who would
have thought that ferries could beat a tunnel on price and speed?

Michael Bell
--

Michael Bell wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Dec 2004:

In other words, Eurotunnel aren't making enough money out of it. Who would
have thought that ferries could beat a tunnel on price and speed?

I have a feeling the lorry drivers prefer ferries as they can get a
decent break, a meal and perhaps a nap before driving what might be a
very long distance indeed on the other side.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004

Terry Harper wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Dec 2004:

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

It may have been disappointing, but it certainly still exists! And I'm
not sure how disappointing passenger traffic is, since they run the
shuttle service every 20 minutes or thereabouts, and 4 passenger tph
through the tunnel - which surely they wouldn't do by now if passenger
levels didn't warrant it?

I see that Eurotunnel are reducing the number of lorry shuttles
considerably, as the increased charges are driving many operators back to
the ferries.

Still a huge queue of lorries last time we went over a few weeks ago!
But then, if they've cut back on lorry-trains, perhaps that's
inevitable.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...
Terry Harper wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Dec 2004:

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

It may have been disappointing, but it certainly still exists! And I'm
not sure how disappointing passenger traffic is, since they run the
shuttle service every 20 minutes or thereabouts, and 4 passenger tph
through the tunnel - which surely they wouldn't do by now if passenger
levels didn't warrant it?

I see that Eurotunnel are reducing the number of lorry shuttles
considerably, as the increased charges are driving many operators back to
the ferries.

Still a huge queue of lorries last time we went over a few weeks ago!
But then, if they've cut back on lorry-trains, perhaps that's
inevitable.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004


No cut-back yet, Annabel. The loadings always seem pretty good, apart from
certain predictable periods- I had to sit in the loco cab one day last week
when coming off shift, as there weren't any seats available in the club-car.
Brian
(who'll be interested to see how busy it'll be on Christmas afternoon, when
he's next on shift..)

In article , Troy
Steadman writes
Didn't there used to be trains that instead of disgorging their
passengers at the docks actually drove (drove?) steamed on to sidings
on the decks of ships then steamed off Stena-like to continue their
journey across Europe?

There are still although not in the UK since the demise of the Night
Ferry in c. 1970's -
I can still recall seeing the Wagon Lits SNCF train at London Victoria

It was withdrawn due to problems with the French stock unique as being
French but built to UK loading gauge.
The ferry I understood last much longer for freight wagons.

In Europe they still exist in 2002 I used the Puttgarden (Germany to
Rodby (Denmark) ferry a through Danish DMU service from Hamburg to
Copenhagen.
A 2nd Germany / Denmark ferry left the Danish port of Gedser also
existed which ran to the Former East Germany, which was declared surplus
following reunification
Puttgarden to Rodby ferry is now less important following the Danish
completion of the Storebelt Bridge/Tunnel between Korsor and Nyborg
which linked the island of Zealand which hosts the Danish capital
Copenhagen with rest of Denmark. This was completed c. late 1990's
reducing Danish Inter-City Train journeys by about 1 hour.
The night train and maybe some other trains from Germany to Copenhagen
now takes this route AFAIK, before trains were conveyed by ferry (Trains
and Passengers only no cars which had a separate ferry.

IN 2000 another Bridge/Tunnel was constructed linking Denmark with
Sweden (Malmo) which no doubts means the existing ferry between
Helsingor (Denmark) and Helsingborg (Sweden) might soon be history

I think there may be still a few elsewhere in the world, but I have
personally only used the above.

In the case of the Puttgarden - Rodby ferry the Danish DMU is driven
onto the ferry, (tracks on car deck) it is then shut down, although you
could stay on the train if you wished, or alight and go up on deck, the
train seemed to be treated like just another 'road' vehicle.

I saw a train from Sweden unloading at Helsingor, and immediately behind
the last carriage road vehicles started disembarking likewise.

--
Alan Osborn

"Alan Osborn" wrote in message
...

There are still although not in the UK since the demise of the Night
Ferry in c. 1970's -
I can still recall seeing the Wagon Lits SNCF train at London Victoria

It was withdrawn due to problems with the French stock unique as being
French but built to UK loading gauge.
The ferry I understood last much longer for freight wagons.

The Night Ferry was carried on the St Germain which was also used as a car
ferry (I used it in 1965). I also travelled on it with the Night Ferry in
1980 (having used the connecting boat train). It was replaced in c 1988 by
the Nord Pas de Calais, a purpose built trainferry which required two
dedicated 33/2s to shunt so the boat stayed upright in the trainferry dock.
It was proposed that prohibited tunnel freight would use it after the
opening of the same but it now carries lorries only, saw it last month.

MartinM wrote:
"Alan Osborn" wrote in message
...

There are still although not in the UK since the demise of the
Night
Ferry in c. 1970's -
I can still recall seeing the Wagon Lits SNCF train at London
Victoria

It was withdrawn due to problems with the French stock unique as
being
French but built to UK loading gauge.
The ferry I understood last much longer for freight wagons.

The Night Ferry was carried on the St Germain which was also used as
a car
ferry (I used it in 1965). I also travelled on it with the Night
Ferry in
1980 (having used the connecting boat train).

The Dover - Dunkerque service was operated by the St. Germain and the
St. Eloi in the 80's.

It was replaced in c 1988 by
the Nord Pas de Calais, a purpose built trainferry which required two
dedicated 33/2s to shunt so the boat stayed upright in the trainferry
dock.
It was proposed that prohibited tunnel freight would use it after the
opening of the same but it now carries lorries only, saw it last
month.

The Nord Pas de Calais replaced both boats, and was big enough to offer
more rail capacity in total, doing a minimum of three round trips a
day. It also used a new berth at Dunkerque, which didn't require the
previous negotiation of a major lock. This speeded up the crossing time
considerably.

The small amount of dangerous goods traffic which could not pass
through the Tunnel would not have justified keeping the train ferry
service going, unfortunately.

I don't know what's happened to the St. Germain, on board which I had
two notable crossings (amongst many). I sailed on the (former) St. Eloi
in about 1993 though, from Heysham to Douglas and back. The rails on
the train deck had been filled in and were no longer easily visible.

The Chartres also had a rail deck, and was sometimes used as a stand-in
when one of the other boats was under maintenance.

Cheers

Mike

In article , Alan Osborn
wrote:
[snip]

IN 2000 another Bridge/Tunnel was constructed linking Denmark with
Sweden (Malmo) which no doubts means the existing ferry between
Helsingor (Denmark) and Helsingborg (Sweden) might soon be history

I have used the Helsingør (Denmark) to Helsingborg (Sweden) ferry (foot
passengers and cars, no trains) recently and there was plenty of traffic. I
think it will stay open.

Michael Bell

--