Nick wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...

Paul typed



We need someone strong enough to address the real problem. That's the
only way it will be stopped.

What do you see as the 'real problem'? Some people will do almost
anything if nobody is there to stop them.

I think the only thing that would stop graffitti / etching /seat
slashing is the presence of enough staff to prevent such actions. This
is expensive.


Indeed - and when did you hear either Bob Kiley or Ken Livingstone say
something about this? Truth seems to be that those who could do something
about it don't seem to care (seemingly more concerned at slagging off 4x4
drivers - not that I have any particular like of 4x4 drivers, but vandals
are by far a bigger enemy).

The levels of vandalism on public transport in the general London area and
surrounds is quite simply appalling AND it's perhaps even more appalling
that the Mayor and other senior figures aren't doing more to combat it. We
should never have let it get this bad, but now it requires an enormous
amount of energy and money to recover the situation. I remember when the
Networker trains in NW Kent began to get their windows etched - what did the
train companies do - put extra staff on trains and stations to stamp out the
problem? No, they did absolutely nothing and the problem mushroomed out of
control to what we see today.

I am quite sure privatised transport operators would care a great deal more
if their subsidy was signficantly adversely affected by levels of vandalism
present on their vehicles. Maybe this is the only realistic way we will get
something done about it.

Actually, the PPP contracts specify that Underground trains can't go
into service if they have been graffitied - when was the last time you
saw a graffitied (rather than etched) Underground train? That approach
seems to work.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Colin McKenzie wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

I think the only thing that would stop graffitti / etching /seat
slashing is the presence of enough staff to prevent such actions. This
is expensive.


So is replacing windows. The economics are not as clear-cut as the
operators might like to believe.

If the rate of window scratching were as much as one window per bus per
day, preventing it would probably pay for an extra employee shift per
bus per day.

Wasn't there an attempt on some London public transport operator to use
stick-on transparent plastic to protect the window surfaces, which was
cheap and relatively easy to replace (avoiding replacement of the whole
window) if etched?


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

when was the last time you
saw a graffitied (rather than etched) Underground train?

About ten days ago. A westbound Central Line train I boarded had a large
amount of graffiti on the front 1.5 cars. And it's not the first train I've
seen recently covered.

Dave Arquati wrote:

Wasn't there an attempt on some London public transport operator to
use
stick-on transparent plastic to protect the window surfaces, which
was
cheap and relatively easy to replace (avoiding replacement of the
whole
window) if etched?

Southern have done that with their refurbished 455s (obviously,
combined with replacement of the ruined windows!) Some Thameslink 319s
also seem to have it applied in random fashion - but for some reason
Thameslink suffers less than the others from vandalism in general.

SouthEastern claimed (in an exchange of emails some time ago, when I
was congratulating them on repainting West Dulwich station every time
it was attacked - so roughly once a week) that the vinyl approach
didn't work, but I notice in their latest newsletter that the Networker
"refreshment" is going to include fitting anti-scratch vinyls. Hurrah.
Merry Christmas, everyone!

Rupert Candy wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:


Wasn't there an attempt on some London public transport operator to use
stick-on transparent plastic to protect the window surfaces, which was
cheap and relatively easy to replace (avoiding replacement of the whole
window) if etched?

Southern have done that with their refurbished 455s (obviously,
combined with replacement of the ruined windows!) Some Thameslink 319s
also seem to have it applied in random fashion - but for some reason
Thameslink suffers less than the others from vandalism in general.

Well, Southern run more inner-suburban services than Thameslink, so I
guess there are more chances for their services to be vandalised. Either
that or the denizens of Streatham, Wimbledon and Sutton are less
anti-social than those of... erm... Peckham, Dulwich and Crystal Palace?

SouthEastern claimed (in an exchange of emails some time ago, when I
was congratulating them on repainting West Dulwich station every time
it was attacked - so roughly once a week) that the vinyl approach
didn't work, but I notice in their latest newsletter that the Networker
"refreshment" is going to include fitting anti-scratch vinyls. Hurrah.
Merry Christmas, everyone!

Refreshment, eh? Is that a fancy term for cleaning?

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Rupert Candy wrote:

Well, Southern run more inner-suburban services than Thameslink, so I

guess there are more chances for their services to be vandalised.
Either
that or the denizens of Streatham, Wimbledon and Sutton are less
anti-social than those of... erm... Peckham, Dulwich and Crystal
Palace?

I'm not convinced that Streatham, Tooting and Sutton are any more
salubrious than Peckham and Tulse Hill. But then I'm biased towards SE
postcodes =P

SouthEastern claimed (in an exchange of emails some time ago, when
I
was congratulating them on repainting West Dulwich station every
time
it was attacked - so roughly once a week) that the vinyl approach
didn't work, but I notice in their latest newsletter that the
Networker
"refreshment" is going to include fitting anti-scratch vinyls.
Hurrah.
Merry Christmas, everyone!

Refreshment, eh? Is that a fancy term for cleaning?

Yes and no - to be fair, SouthEastern have actually cleaned the
Networkers since they took over from C*nnex (and when it first
happened, the difference was very clear!) It's still not completely
clear what's happening, but I think a small batch (c.30) of 465s are
being properly refurbished with new seats and a First Class (no joke)
section, and will supposedly be limited to the middle-distance routes
(such as Victoria-Ashford semi-fasts, which are already 465-operated).
In addition, they are also planning to "refresh" the rest of the
Networkers - I'm not sure what's involved, but AIUI it will definitely
include vandalproofing the toilets (and presumably making them work)
and fitting anti-scratch film to the windows. New seat covers would be
nice, but that's probably asking too much.

The SET newsletter has mo

http://www.setrains.co.uk/SETrains/C...HowAreWeDoing/

(compare "Networker Refreshment" at the top with "Train Cleaning:
Metro" further down.)

PS Sorry about the knackered quoting - this new version of Google
Groups is awful...

This problem of etching is getting widespread around parts of Hillingdon,
effecting buses, bus shelters etc., like an epidemic, and I think the culprits
are wandering bands of kids. They do bus windows from the inside, so we are
subsidising them to ride around disfiguering the vehicles (another problem is
obliterated bus stop timetables etc so we cannot read them).
I think they also rely on a social atmosphere in which adults feel inhibited
or intimidated from interfering with them, so look the other way.
Various reasons for this - the removal of bus conductors, the fact that those
travelling on buses, apart from the cocky yobbos, are often elderly and
infirm; the fact that local police, despite promises to disperse gangs etc, are
rarely to be seen and (in my experience) slow to respond, even seem
uninterested; the fact that some parents not only don't know or care where
there kids are and what they are up to, but respond to any complaint of
misbehaviour by rounding on the complainants.
What to do? Well, ideally, we need some determination among residents and the
travelling public to reassert some order and
stop letting estates and transport be ruled by the lumpen and yobbos; and some
backing from authority for this. Wouldn't that lead to vigilantism? If
necessary, yes.
If we take the law into our own hands maybe the people we pay to provide safety
and services will get off their asses.
Meanwhile, a couple of suggestions. One, where possible bring back conductors,
even if their job would be more about security than fare-collecting - we used
to call them "guards" anyway. On trains as well.
Second - and lighter on manpower - to set up mobile squads, plainclothes, that
would turn up unexpected and unannounced on trains and buses, or arrive at bus
stations, and be empowered to make arrests. It would not mean everyone doing
stuff got caught, but it would act as a deterrent, as news spread that Jimmy
Higgins and his mates were innocently etching a window or whatever yesterday
when two geezers came up and nicked them.
While they're at it they could walk along tube trains making people take their
feet down off seats. Time was I used to remark on this in my carriage, but I'm
getting older, and the problem has grown so on some lines it's getting like if
you don't put your feet up you're the odd one out. (same with station seats
where its de rigur with teenagers to sit on the back with feet on the seat)
Guess its less of a problem in rush hours and central London where there's
seldom room, but out here the way some people stretch out, particularly young
women lately, you'd think they'd booked bed and breakfast.

Southern have done that with their refurbished 455s (obviously,
combined with replacement of the ruined windows!) Some Thameslink 319s
also seem to have it applied in random fashion - but for some reason
Thameslink suffers less than the others from vandalism in general.

c2c have it on the 357s - though now, a "promise" has been made that a
train will not be out in service with severe graffiti or etching -
unless it would mean a cancellation, delay or significant crowding.
I think the vandalism on Thameslink is hate vandalism rather than
vandalism for the sake of it. I was on 3 319s the other week, one had "I
hate Thameslink" on it, one had "Thameslink is sh*t," the other had
"Crap train" on it!
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