What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute -
within shortdistances of King's Cross there are properties
less expensive than Cambridge (I still own one), and there
are interesting possibilities for people who's jobs
involve, say, trips abroad, especially when the
St Pancras Terminal is finished,for Paris, Brussels etc.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view but for others,
I already talked to people in some hi-tech companies in
Cambridge who had partners with jobs which were in or
nearer London or involved travel sometimes more easily
started from there (of course we have Stansted, which
is pretty staggeringly good for Europe).

Going the other way, a friend of mine who works at UCL
(where I used to) did indeed move to Cambridge for
life style reasons, and the 70min estimate for
commute time is about right (note -
depending on your work, this is made up of
45 mins of useable reading/working time...so in fact
its very tractable - in his case, he even gets london
weighting on his salary which almost exactly covers
the train ticket costs )

If GNER trains didnt get in the way at the Hitchin junction,
theCambridge-London service for King's Cross could easily be
a tad faster - _ believe there was discussion 3-4 years ago
about speeding the route up further to 35 mins but:

Of course, some people might be discouraged by things
like the Potters Bar disaster (but of course the track
maintenance is now under new management...) -
statistically though its safer than cycling

Oh, the statistics on the train company are one of the least bad for
reliability, which must also be a factor in the increase too
(compared with say going to Oxford

happy new year!

--
Jon Crowcroft

In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes

What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute

Trains to Cambridge in the morning have appalling timekeeping. Even
people commuting from as close as Royston/Meldreth etc are only doing it
as a distress purchase.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of education at
Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's simply not like most
other Universities. It suits people very well, and if it's not to your
taste then no-one is forcing you to go there.

Going the other way, a friend of mine who works at UCL
(where I used to) did indeed move to Cambridge for
life style reasons, and the 70min estimate for
commute time is about right (note -
depending on your work, this is made up of
45 mins of useable reading/working time...so in fact
its very tractable - in his case, he even gets london
weighting on his salary which almost exactly covers
the train ticket costs )

Actually, the 70 minutes is the time *on the train* in the rush hour
(not door to door). That's 58 minutes for the journey and five minutes
either end for getting on and off.

45 mins is the much faster journey time during the day on a non-stop
Cambridge Cruiser, which don't run in the peaks.

And if you are lucky enough to get a seat you can do some work, but the
trains lack useful tables and it's a real struggle.

If GNER trains didnt get in the way at the Hitchin junction,
theCambridge-London service for King's Cross could easily be
a tad faster - _ believe there was discussion 3-4 years ago
about speeding the route up further to 35 mins but:

The cruisers manage to get through Hitchin without stopping. It's about
57 miles by train, and 35 mins is a bit optimistic (average of 98mph
using trains that I think have a max speed of 100mph). The line speed
from Hitchin to Cambridge is the limiting factor, a major upgrade about
5 years ago raised it to the 70-80 mph region, I think (and knocked 2
mins of the timings). Upgrading again to 100 mph is unrealistic.

If you look at GNER timings (and they run at well over 100mph) then
Hitchin would seem to be about 21 mins from KX (Stevenage is timetabled
at 19 mins as a stop; or dividing the KX-HIT-PBO distance equally into
45 mins you get 20 mins, but the southern end is always slower) leaving
only 14 mins for the remaining 25 miles! The cruisers do well to average
about 70 north of Hitchin (assuming they can also get to Hitchin in 21
mins, which is averaging just over 90).
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

In article ,
Meldrew of Meldreth writes:
In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes

What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute

Trains to Cambridge in the morning have appalling timekeeping. Even
people commuting from as close as Royston/Meldreth etc are only doing it
as a distress purchase.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of education at
Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's simply not like most
other Universities. It suits people very well, and if it's not to your
taste then no-one is forcing you to go there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC
and a couple of other places that are based on College/Residence model
formally); but having studied for taught
degrees and research degrees in London and
Cambridge, let mesaytell you that since the
move to most teaching and much supervision
being department or school centric in Cambridge, the collegiate
(or boarding school) model you describe is much less pronounced.
What is more, MOST universities traditionally had a model that students
were "away from home" for the first time living in dorms, staying in
their university town all term, and going home in the vac. Indeed,
given the economic pressures, travel is not high on the typical
student (or academic)'s agenda. For real cabin fever though, there are
ofcourse students who are obliged to live at home due to falling in
between various "wealth bins" that the governemnt constructs.

Anyhow this is not directly connected with transport (although actually
cost of living and pressures on where to live in relation to work
are clearly major factors in planning, so I dont think its off topic for
this group).

Going the other way, a friend of mine who works at UCL
(where I used to) did indeed move to Cambridge for
life style reasons, and the 70min estimate for
commute time is about right (note -
depending on your work, this is made up of
45 mins of useable reading/working time...so in fact
its very tractable - in his case, he even gets london
weighting on his salary which almost exactly covers
the train ticket costs )

Actually, the 70 minutes is the time *on the train* in the rush hour
(not door to door). That's 58 minutes for the journey and five minutes
either end for getting on and off.

Um, my friend is an _academic_: You assume he commutes in the peak time,
but thats not a requirement, as he can go after (or before.
But you're right I guess for some jobs,
e.g. some city banker type who wants to live in a nice
quiet town/village, unless they go really early, and that would
kind of negate the point of a quiet half-life.
For the reverse commute, there _are_ fast trains and smaller crowds.

45 mins is the much faster journey time during the day on a non-stop
Cambridge Cruiser, which don't run in the peaks.

Yes, true - and thats reasonable given they have to stop so many times
so a faster train couldnt easily overtake. I wonder if they've looked
at this increase in demand and figured out if there's money in it
to improve that service yet?

And if you are lucky enough to get a seat you can do some work, but the
trains lack useful tables and it's a real struggle.

Yes, that is a drag ... the trick WAGN play with 8 and 4
carriage trains is neat, but it doesnt quite produce enough
space for the commute load...I agree -

If GNER trains didnt get in the way at the Hitchin junction,
theCambridge-London service for King's Cross could easily be
a tad faster - _ believe there was discussion 3-4 years ago
about speeding the route up further to 35 mins but:

The cruisers manage to get through Hitchin without stopping. It's about
57 miles by train, and 35 mins is a bit optimistic (average of 98mph
using trains that I think have a max speed of 100mph). The line speed
from Hitchin to Cambridge is the limiting factor, a major upgrade about
5 years ago raised it to the 70-80 mph region, I think (and knocked 2
mins of the timings). Upgrading again to 100 mph is unrealistic.

I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

If you look at GNER timings (and they run at well over 100mph) then
Hitchin would seem to be about 21 mins from KX (Stevenage is timetabled
at 19 mins as a stop; or dividing the KX-HIT-PBO distance equally into
45 mins you get 20 mins, but the southern end is always slower) leaving
only 14 mins for the remaining 25 miles! The cruisers do well to average
about 70 north of Hitchin (assuming they can also get to Hitchin in 21
mins, which is averaging just over 90).

Well I certainly remember reading about plans; I am fairly sure that
the problems are slwing for the various points and level crossings
like round Foxton. If there was a road bridge there (or road tunnel, although
it doesnt look easy to engineer that) that would obviate the
rather long slow down and speed up a train has to do. I am guessing
that the 70mph is simply coz there's not enough run between these
places to make it worth getting up to 90 or 100 and then back down again
but you may well be right...

but imagine if it was 35 mins - you could be looking at
Cambridge-Paris by train in 2 years time in under 3 hours...
which would probably be very close to the
cambridge-stansted-charles de gaul-paris haul given checkin/security
etc, and an awful lot greener....and when fuel prices go up and hit
economy airlines, an awful lot cheaper (though thats rather
further off:-(

"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

--
Jon Crowcroft

In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes

What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute

Trains to Cambridge in the morning have appalling timekeeping. Even
people commuting from as close as Royston/Meldreth etc are only doing it
as a distress purchase.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of education at
Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's simply not like most
other Universities. It suits people very well, and if it's not to your
taste then no-one is forcing you to go there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC

Did I say it was unique to Cambridge? I just said "*most* other
Universities".

Um, my friend is an _academic_: You assume he commutes in the peak time,
but thats not a requirement, as he can go after (or before.

The cruisers don't run either before the morning peak or after the
evening one. Unless he's putting in 6 hour days, he can only use them at
most one way.

45 mins is the much faster journey time during the day on a non-stop
Cambridge Cruiser, which don't run in the peaks.

Yes, true - and thats reasonable given they have to stop so many times
so a faster train couldnt easily overtake. I wonder if they've looked
at this increase in demand and figured out if there's money in it
to improve that service yet?

The last I heard, WAGN wanted to cancel the Cruisers and rely on the
remaining semi-fasts (there is plenty of capacity as all these trains
run rather empty during the day), but were prevented from doing that
because the Cruisers are a franchise obligation.

I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

The points *at* Hitchin have to be taken slowly (it's also a quite
severe curve) but there's no similar restrictions I know of further
north until just outside Cambridge (where the junction with the LS line
is also a slow one).

If you look at GNER timings (and they run at well over 100mph) then
Hitchin would seem to be about 21 mins from KX (Stevenage is timetabled
at 19 mins as a stop; or dividing the KX-HIT-PBO distance equally into
45 mins you get 20 mins, but the southern end is always slower) leaving
only 14 mins for the remaining 25 miles! The cruisers do well to average
about 70 north of Hitchin (assuming they can also get to Hitchin in 21
mins, which is averaging just over 90).

Well I certainly remember reading about plans; I am fairly sure that
the problems are slwing for the various points and level crossings
like round Foxton. If there was a road bridge there (or road tunnel, although
it doesnt look easy to engineer that) that would obviate the
rather long slow down and speed up a train has to do.

Would have to do. The current trains don't slow down for Foxton.

I am guessing
that the 70mph is simply coz there's not enough run between these
places to make it worth getting up to 90 or 100 and then back down again
but you may well be right...

The track is very bumpy and poorly maintained. That's the main reason
for the limits. The line is basically three straight stretches joined
together with a curve each at Royston and Shepreth.

but imagine if it was 35 mins - you could be looking at
Cambridge-Paris by train in 2 years time in under 3 hours...

It's a dream. You'll never get the required 125 mph running on the line,
and even that won't help unless KX-Hitchin is improved (remember the 14
mins for 25 miles from the earlier sums), and that's *already* high
speed.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

Meldrew of Meldreth wrote:

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of
education at Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's
simply not like most other Universities. It suits people very well,
and if it's not to your taste then no-one is forcing you to go
there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC

Did I say it was unique to Cambridge? I just said "*most* other
Universities".

Certainly back in the 70's/80's, almost all universities expected first (and
often third) years to live on site

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:02:18 -0000, "Stimpy"
wrote:

Certainly back in the 70's/80's, almost all universities expected first (and
often third) years to live on site

Perhaps - though I've not heard in a long time of another university
(like I'm told is the case in Cambridge and possibly Oxford) that
requires you to be in residence over a specified number of weekends.

Many universities guarantee first years a place in halls, but I don't
think any (other than those two) now enforce it as a requirement.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Neil Williams
writes
Perhaps - though I've not heard in a long time of another university
(like I'm told is the case in Cambridge and possibly Oxford) that
requires you to be in residence over a specified number of weekends.

Weekends aren't special (nor are Bank Holidays during exams); it's the
number of *nights* that count. You need the weekends to make up the
numbers, and in my day there were quite a few courses with Saturday
morning lectures- I'm not sure whether that's changed now.

Comparing our calendars with friends at London University, their terms
were 2 weeks longer, but everyone routinely took time off most weekends
- so they actually worked less. My college library was full of people
studying on a Sunday afternoon, and with no TV or other distractions to
speak of (one set in a common room) people did tend to work most of the
time.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

In article , Stimpy
writes
Certainly back in the 70's/80's, almost all universities expected first (and
often third) years to live on site

That may have been because there were fewer "new" universities then, but
even in those days there were few students at London University living
anywhere near their lecture facilities, even if they were in halls of
residence.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes
I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

For a non-stop class 365 EMU, the bottlenecks are as follows:

King's Cross approaches start at 15mph and ramp up to 100mph by, IIRC,
Finsbury Park (my sources for this are a bit out of date).
Limit is then never below 100mph to Hitchin.

Hitchin junction is 40mph for 34c (just under 700m) northbound, 26c
(just over 500m) southbound. Southbound trains are also limited to 75mph
through Hitchin and for about 600m south, then IIRC 70mph over the
connection to the fast line.

Limit is then 80mph to Royston (but this may be out of date).
North of Royston my sources predate the major works of a few years ago,
but show limits varying between 50 and 90mph; the major restrictions are
at the north end of Royston and at Shepreth.

Shepreth Branch Junction (on to the Liverpool Street line) is 30mph.
Then 90mph to Long Road, then 80mph northbound, 90mph southbound, to
Hills Road, then 35mph into the station.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

So just for fun I did this trip on the 10.45 cruiser kings Cross-Cambridge this
morning -

By chance, it was held up behind a slow train for 5 minutes, and yet arrived on
time, this _despite_ a stop outside kings cross (bottleneck: simply
because of 4 tracks from 11 platforms to get out) and coming into cambridge
(bottleneck: due to only 1 stupid platform for 3 trains requiring extreme caution
in correct use of semaphors for 2 sets of points), AND a stop at hitchin (as
northbound trains to cambridge cross the fast line, there's always a good chance
that there's some southbound GNER in the way...)

On the topic of ENgland's longest platform - someone tried to sing its praises
as oh so friendly to disabled people (no bridge or underpass or lift to
negotiate to get to the other platform) - well as a person still on crutches
after my bike accident, I can tell you that if you have to navigate from
platform 4 to 1 on the uncertain surface (and lets say that for some unusual
reason it is slightly damp too), it is not at all friendly to disabled people
at all.

Anyhow:

I would say that if the slow train (which the driver told us was not according
to schedule) had not been there, the cruiser could have been in cambridge in 40
minutes, (I checked the times on each section, but cannot speak for the speed of
the train). If the other bottlenecks were not there, the journey would have taken
approx 38 minutes. Admittedly, the 2 or 3 other bottlenecks wouldbe expensive to
remove and make safe alternatives.

I have no idea about the theory, but this was an empirical result

(actually I've been on the cruiser one or two times when its taken 42 minutes
platform to platform outside of busy times....)

oh, I dont suppose now is the time to complain about the lack of safe places to
put bikes (someones bike fell over as we went around the curve after hitchin - i
--
Jon Crowcroft