In article ,
Meldrew of Meldreth writes:
In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes

What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute

Trains to Cambridge in the morning have appalling timekeeping. Even
people commuting from as close as Royston/Meldreth etc are only doing it
as a distress purchase.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of education at
Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's simply not like most
other Universities. It suits people very well, and if it's not to your
taste then no-one is forcing you to go there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC
and a couple of other places that are based on College/Residence model
formally); but having studied for taught
degrees and research degrees in London and
Cambridge, let mesaytell you that since the
move to most teaching and much supervision
being department or school centric in Cambridge, the collegiate
(or boarding school) model you describe is much less pronounced.
What is more, MOST universities traditionally had a model that students
were "away from home" for the first time living in dorms, staying in
their university town all term, and going home in the vac. Indeed,
given the economic pressures, travel is not high on the typical
student (or academic)'s agenda. For real cabin fever though, there are
ofcourse students who are obliged to live at home due to falling in
between various "wealth bins" that the governemnt constructs.

Anyhow this is not directly connected with transport (although actually
cost of living and pressures on where to live in relation to work
are clearly major factors in planning, so I dont think its off topic for
this group).

Going the other way, a friend of mine who works at UCL
(where I used to) did indeed move to Cambridge for
life style reasons, and the 70min estimate for
commute time is about right (note -
depending on your work, this is made up of
45 mins of useable reading/working time...so in fact
its very tractable - in his case, he even gets london
weighting on his salary which almost exactly covers
the train ticket costs )

Actually, the 70 minutes is the time *on the train* in the rush hour
(not door to door). That's 58 minutes for the journey and five minutes
either end for getting on and off.

Um, my friend is an _academic_: You assume he commutes in the peak time,
but thats not a requirement, as he can go after (or before.
But you're right I guess for some jobs,
e.g. some city banker type who wants to live in a nice
quiet town/village, unless they go really early, and that would
kind of negate the point of a quiet half-life.
For the reverse commute, there _are_ fast trains and smaller crowds.

45 mins is the much faster journey time during the day on a non-stop
Cambridge Cruiser, which don't run in the peaks.

Yes, true - and thats reasonable given they have to stop so many times
so a faster train couldnt easily overtake. I wonder if they've looked
at this increase in demand and figured out if there's money in it
to improve that service yet?

And if you are lucky enough to get a seat you can do some work, but the
trains lack useful tables and it's a real struggle.

Yes, that is a drag ... the trick WAGN play with 8 and 4
carriage trains is neat, but it doesnt quite produce enough
space for the commute load...I agree -

If GNER trains didnt get in the way at the Hitchin junction,
theCambridge-London service for King's Cross could easily be
a tad faster - _ believe there was discussion 3-4 years ago
about speeding the route up further to 35 mins but:

The cruisers manage to get through Hitchin without stopping. It's about
57 miles by train, and 35 mins is a bit optimistic (average of 98mph
using trains that I think have a max speed of 100mph). The line speed
from Hitchin to Cambridge is the limiting factor, a major upgrade about
5 years ago raised it to the 70-80 mph region, I think (and knocked 2
mins of the timings). Upgrading again to 100 mph is unrealistic.

I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

If you look at GNER timings (and they run at well over 100mph) then
Hitchin would seem to be about 21 mins from KX (Stevenage is timetabled
at 19 mins as a stop; or dividing the KX-HIT-PBO distance equally into
45 mins you get 20 mins, but the southern end is always slower) leaving
only 14 mins for the remaining 25 miles! The cruisers do well to average
about 70 north of Hitchin (assuming they can also get to Hitchin in 21
mins, which is averaging just over 90).

Well I certainly remember reading about plans; I am fairly sure that
the problems are slwing for the various points and level crossings
like round Foxton. If there was a road bridge there (or road tunnel, although
it doesnt look easy to engineer that) that would obviate the
rather long slow down and speed up a train has to do. I am guessing
that the 70mph is simply coz there's not enough run between these
places to make it worth getting up to 90 or 100 and then back down again
but you may well be right...

but imagine if it was 35 mins - you could be looking at
Cambridge-Paris by train in 2 years time in under 3 hours...
which would probably be very close to the
cambridge-stansted-charles de gaul-paris haul given checkin/security
etc, and an awful lot greener....and when fuel prices go up and hit
economy airlines, an awful lot cheaper (though thats rather
further off:-(

"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

--
Jon Crowcroft

In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes

What surprises me is that there isn't more reverse commuute

Trains to Cambridge in the morning have appalling timekeeping. Even
people commuting from as close as Royston/Meldreth etc are only doing it
as a distress purchase.

I'm guessing that only the rather baroque residence
requirement of the University has stopped some of that
community taking that view

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of education at
Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's simply not like most
other Universities. It suits people very well, and if it's not to your
taste then no-one is forcing you to go there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC

Did I say it was unique to Cambridge? I just said "*most* other
Universities".

Um, my friend is an _academic_: You assume he commutes in the peak time,
but thats not a requirement, as he can go after (or before.

The cruisers don't run either before the morning peak or after the
evening one. Unless he's putting in 6 hour days, he can only use them at
most one way.

45 mins is the much faster journey time during the day on a non-stop
Cambridge Cruiser, which don't run in the peaks.

Yes, true - and thats reasonable given they have to stop so many times
so a faster train couldnt easily overtake. I wonder if they've looked
at this increase in demand and figured out if there's money in it
to improve that service yet?

The last I heard, WAGN wanted to cancel the Cruisers and rely on the
remaining semi-fasts (there is plenty of capacity as all these trains
run rather empty during the day), but were prevented from doing that
because the Cruisers are a franchise obligation.

I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

The points *at* Hitchin have to be taken slowly (it's also a quite
severe curve) but there's no similar restrictions I know of further
north until just outside Cambridge (where the junction with the LS line
is also a slow one).

If you look at GNER timings (and they run at well over 100mph) then
Hitchin would seem to be about 21 mins from KX (Stevenage is timetabled
at 19 mins as a stop; or dividing the KX-HIT-PBO distance equally into
45 mins you get 20 mins, but the southern end is always slower) leaving
only 14 mins for the remaining 25 miles! The cruisers do well to average
about 70 north of Hitchin (assuming they can also get to Hitchin in 21
mins, which is averaging just over 90).

Well I certainly remember reading about plans; I am fairly sure that
the problems are slwing for the various points and level crossings
like round Foxton. If there was a road bridge there (or road tunnel, although
it doesnt look easy to engineer that) that would obviate the
rather long slow down and speed up a train has to do.

Would have to do. The current trains don't slow down for Foxton.

I am guessing
that the 70mph is simply coz there's not enough run between these
places to make it worth getting up to 90 or 100 and then back down again
but you may well be right...

The track is very bumpy and poorly maintained. That's the main reason
for the limits. The line is basically three straight stretches joined
together with a curve each at Royston and Shepreth.

but imagine if it was 35 mins - you could be looking at
Cambridge-Paris by train in 2 years time in under 3 hours...

It's a dream. You'll never get the required 125 mph running on the line,
and even that won't help unless KX-Hitchin is improved (remember the 14
mins for 25 miles from the earlier sums), and that's *already* high
speed.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

Meldrew of Meldreth wrote:

You entirely misunderstand the "boarding school" nature of
education at Cambridge, which takes places 7 days a week. It's
simply not like most other Universities. It suits people very well,
and if it's not to your taste then no-one is forcing you to go
there.

This is rather an over-statement of the specialness of Cambridge
(especially given there's Oxford, Durham, and even UKC

Did I say it was unique to Cambridge? I just said "*most* other
Universities".

Certainly back in the 70's/80's, almost all universities expected first (and
often third) years to live on site

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:02:18 -0000, "Stimpy"
wrote:

Certainly back in the 70's/80's, almost all universities expected first (and
often third) years to live on site

Perhaps - though I've not heard in a long time of another university
(like I'm told is the case in Cambridge and possibly Oxford) that
requires you to be in residence over a specified number of weekends.

Many universities guarantee first years a place in halls, but I don't
think any (other than those two) now enforce it as a requirement.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Neil Williams
writes
Perhaps - though I've not heard in a long time of another university
(like I'm told is the case in Cambridge and possibly Oxford) that
requires you to be in residence over a specified number of weekends.

Weekends aren't special (nor are Bank Holidays during exams); it's the
number of *nights* that count. You need the weekends to make up the
numbers, and in my day there were quite a few courses with Saturday
morning lectures- I'm not sure whether that's changed now.

Comparing our calendars with friends at London University, their terms
were 2 weeks longer, but everyone routinely took time off most weekends
- so they actually worked less. My college library was full of people
studying on a Sunday afternoon, and with no TV or other distractions to
speak of (one set in a common room) people did tend to work most of the
time.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:55:38 +0000, Meldrew of Meldreth
wrote:

Weekends aren't special (nor are Bank Holidays during exams); it's the
number of *nights* that count. You need the weekends to make up the
numbers, and in my day there were quite a few courses with Saturday
morning lectures- I'm not sure whether that's changed now.

OOI, how is it enforced? Do they come around knocking on doors in the
late evening to ensure you haven't sneaked off for a couple of days?

(In Manchester, we were supposed to notify the hall office if going
away overnight, presumably for fire list reasons, but in practice
nobody actually did that I could tell, and a register was never taken
when the fire alarm went off).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Neil Williams
writes
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:55:38 +0000, Meldrew of Meldreth
wrote:

Weekends aren't special (nor are Bank Holidays during exams); it's the
number of *nights* that count. You need the weekends to make up the
numbers, and in my day there were quite a few courses with Saturday
morning lectures- I'm not sure whether that's changed now.

OOI, how is it enforced? Do they come around knocking on doors in the
late evening to ensure you haven't sneaked off for a couple of days?

(In Manchester, we were supposed to notify the hall office if going
away overnight, presumably for fire list reasons, but in practice
nobody actually did that I could tell, and a register was never taken
when the fire alarm went off).

In the old days the cleaners who came round at 8am would notice people
who were absent. And colleges are small places (mine had only 300
students) - it's pretty obvious when people aren't around. Today, I
expect there's more trust involved, as the colleges are more open (to
their members if not the public).
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

Meldrew of Meldreth writes:


... people did tend to work most of the time.

Boggle. We are talking about student life here are we? My recollection
is rather different.

1/ students are not gonna spend 3000-4000 commuting, so
we're talking (well i was talking) about staff (teaching officers and related

2/ students do not have to live in hall, so they cannot be policed
in fact.

3/ staff and students have to "keep nights"
which actually is described
(in the statutes and ordinances and is on the web somewhere or other) as
no more than a number of nights sleeping away in a certain period where
"away" (or whatever it says) is
a certain distance (has varied over the years and for category of people.
(is now in miles, was at least for a while in hours walk/horseride

4/ this ALL contributes to the high cost of housing in and near cambridge
and probably doesnt particular reduce traffic (as the distance is still
driving for staff, and there are enough of them to constitute congestion
with families and they are badly enough paid that they wont all live near
enough to cycle unless they were practically born here and inherited a house
(or worked here for 10 years) (imho)

London University has 3 taught terms of 12 weeks with a reading week, and
5 day terms - Cambridge taught term is 8 weeks of 5.5 days max - in practice
UCL and Imperial students attend more lectures in sciences (at least where I
know) though whether this constites working "harder" I couldn't possibly
comment....well actually as an examiner at 10+ UK universities over the last 24
years I could - I'd say that the residence and working practices and
"boarding school" or otherwise of the UK universities is remarkably uniform
in the end, though.

Bigger Pictu
If I compare it to other European countries I am familiar with (e.g. UCD/TCD in
Ireland, Lulea and Stockholm, Paris XI, Nice, Pisa, Athens, etc etc), I'd say we
are more residential - if I compare it to US similar places, I'd say actually
less (at least e.g. Dartmouth, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Berkeley, UPenn,
Michegan - note some of those are private, some state).

Of course, the trains in the rest of Europe are probably better
and we know the ones in the US are probably worse, (if thats possible)
so there's probably a Masters thesis in looking at the effects of
fast and reliable rail travel on the residential nature of faculty
and student body culture and locales in various countries of the developed
world. :-)

[can discuss Universities in Brasil and New Zealand too if you like:-]

p.s. If the current cruiser train time is 45 mins,
and we were discussing a possible time of 35 mins,
and the distance is 55 miles, I am not quite
sure where speeds of 125mph come up - 100mph
tilting trains would work on most the route
provided track and points are made up to a higher
quality surely? If you've ever been on a eurostar
coming into the chunnel from the continental side, when
it stops sometimes, it is on a mighty lean - looks like
even decent bogie design is sufficient given track
conditions (yes, I know TGV track is ruinously
pricy coz of fancy welds etc)...

--
Jon Crowcroft

In article , Paul Rudin
writes
... people did tend to work most of the time.

Boggle. We are talking about student life here are we? My recollection
is rather different.

Yep. Not much else to do really. No money for living the high life, and
consumer electronics hadn't been invented yet.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"