"tim" wrote in message
...


Now, I can't work out what the difference is between:

Bilety okresowe miejskie na okaziciela
and
Bilety sieciowe okresowe na okaziciela

Looks like: "period ticket in the urban area for the bearer", and "network
period ticket for the bearer". Is the bearer female, I wonder? My Polish
Grammar never was very strong.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
Web Site: http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

"tim" writes:

I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day)
that is defined as unlimited rides.

In most of Scandinavia, that's the normal case, as far as zonal ticket
systems are considered (eg all the capitals). It varies whether the
time limit applies to the last boarding or alighting, though. For
instance, in the regional system of the Helsinki area, single tickets
(cash or Oyster-prepay-like) are valid for unlimited travel within the
appropriate zone(s) for 60/80/100 minutes plus whatever it takes to
reach the last stop of the line after that (or max 1 full loop on
circular lines).

--- Neil Williams said...


OK, how about a radical change? Replace the single with a 2-hour
ticket, and legitimise what you suggest. They do that in Prague.


That's no good. It would *still* overcharge people making a local
journey, just like the present system does. They'd pay for two hours
but only travel for 15 minutes, and no chance of a refund on the unused
time!

A system based on point-to-point fares is the only honest option.

"Solar Penguin" wrote in message
...

--- Neil Williams said...


OK, how about a radical change? Replace the single with a 2-hour
ticket, and legitimise what you suggest. They do that in Prague.


That's no good. It would *still* overcharge people making a local
journey, just like the present system does. They'd pay for two hours
but only travel for 15 minutes, and no chance of a refund on the unused
time!

A system based on point-to-point fares is the only honest option.

Its only "honest" if it completely covers the cost of the short journey.
If you take into account the cost of maintenance, staff wages, depreciation,
management costs, and all the other fixed costs, the actual cost of a 2 hr
journey
is probable only marginally above a 15 minute one.

peter

--- Paul Corfield said...


All that would happen would be that fares would rise
overall to deal with the mileage and related cost that you
cling to as some sort of justification for adopting point to
points. In the case of NR fares almost all PTPs are far
more expensive than the Tube equivalent.

IIRC even before the zones were introduced, the old British Rail fares
were more still more expensive than the equivalent Tube fares.

But yes, there are oddities and overpricings in the current NR system,
but I still believe that in theory *a* point-to-point system could
become the fairest possible system. Just not the one that NR are using
at the moment!


But there is no justification at all for differentiating fares
like this on an urban railway system.

It seems justified to me. It gives consumers a fair choice with
different prices for different types of service. What's wrong with
that?

To use your theoretical basis Turnham Green would have
to have two sets of fares to everywhere to deal with the fact
that for a tiny part (early and late) of the day super fast
Piccadilly Line trains stop. These are traditionally off peak
times when fares would be cheaper but in your version they
would be more expensive than the slow chug along District
Line which provides the service at the height of the peak
- the most expensive time of the day. Lunacy!

The off-peak Piccadilly fares would be more expensive than the off-peak
District fares, but not necessarily more expensive than the peak
District fares.

(BTW apologies to anyone in years to come who found that sentence while
searching Google Groups for "the Peak District". Search engines are
annoying, aren't they?)

Whether you like it or not I cannot envisage the day when a zonal
basis for fares in London will be abolished.

Unfortunately, I can't realistically envisage them being abolished
either. But it doesn't stop me believing they should be.

Even so, if you are TfL, then it would be difficult to explain why you
are offering discounts for any bus journey following a Tube journey in
the same day (or vice versa). The main reason behind this idea has to be
to make life fairer or more convenient for people travelling to areas
not well-served by Tube, but still within a certain journey time of a
Tube station. Therefore it would make sense to introduce a reasonably
long time limit for the interchange (as you said initially), rather than
a blanket all-day discount which doesn't really serve any purpose.

I'm not entirely clear who those people are who are perceived to be treated
unfairly or inconvenienced (I'm not saying they don't exist, I genuinely
don't know who we are talking about). For example if I want to make a
return journey into Central London by bus and tube the off-peak travelcard
at £5.20 already compares favourably with the individual Pre-Pay fares at
£5-60/£6.10/£6.60 (depending on the timing of the tube legs) and even more
so with cash fares at £8.00 so clearly that is already well taken care of.
Are we talking more about peak periods or are there combinations of zones
that don't work out so well?

--- peter said...

If you take into account the cost of maintenance, staff wages,
depreciation, management costs, and all the other fixed costs,
the actual cost of a 2 hr journey is probable only marginally
above a 15 minute one.

But most of those fixed costs would still be in place even if there were
no journeys at all. (e.g. an empty bus still needs to drive along its
route looking for passengers to pick up.) Why should customers be made
to pay for costs which aren't our fault?

In article ,
Solar Penguin wrote:
But most of those fixed costs would still be in place even if there were
no journeys at all.

Yes.

(e.g. an empty bus still needs to drive along its
route looking for passengers to pick up.) Why should customers be made
to pay for costs which aren't our fault?

Where else is the money to come from?

--
Mike Bristow - really a very good driver

Terry Harper wrote:
"tim" wrote in message
...


Now, I can't work out what the difference is between:

Bilety okresowe miejskie na okaziciela
and
Bilety sieciowe okresowe na okaziciela

Looks like: "period ticket in the urban area for the bearer", and
"network
period ticket for the bearer". Is the bearer female, I wonder? My
Polish
Grammar never was very strong.

No, I think the bearer's in the genitive, unless the diacritic on the
"a" is missing :-P

Graham J wrote:
Even so, if you are TfL, then it would be difficult to explain why you
are offering discounts for any bus journey following a Tube journey in
the same day (or vice versa). The main reason behind this idea has to be
to make life fairer or more convenient for people travelling to areas
not well-served by Tube, but still within a certain journey time of a
Tube station. Therefore it would make sense to introduce a reasonably
long time limit for the interchange (as you said initially), rather than
a blanket all-day discount which doesn't really serve any purpose.


I'm not entirely clear who those people are who are perceived to be treated
unfairly or inconvenienced (I'm not saying they don't exist, I genuinely
don't know who we are talking about). For example if I want to make a
return journey into Central London by bus and tube the off-peak travelcard
at £5.20 already compares favourably with the individual Pre-Pay fares at
£5-60/£6.10/£6.60 (depending on the timing of the tube legs) and even more
so with cash fares at £8.00 so clearly that is already well taken care of.
Are we talking more about peak periods or are there combinations of zones
that don't work out so well?

I see what you mean, but the idea is that the discount for the through
journey will make Prepay cheaper for a simple return journey. For
example, for someone in Battersea who feeds into Vauxhall by bus for a
journey to King's Cross, the current prepay fare is £0.80 + £1.70 each
way (£5.00 return, making the off-peak travelcard cheaper at £4.70).
However, imagine the bus fare is only £0.40 for journeys connecting
to/from a Tube leg - £2.10 each way, making the return journey £4.20.

It lessens the £1.30 "penalty" for not living near a Tube station to £0.40.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London