an anti-clockwise
one-way system is superior (because drivers have better visibility when
curving to the left).

There might be better visibility once in the square, curving to the left, but
surely with traffic going clockwise, entry TO the roundabout, square or
whatever is much easier than if the traffic were coming from the left, since
visibility is better to the entering driver, sitting on the right, if traffic
is also coming from the right.

That same logic is why, presumably, in countries where traffic drives on the
right, roundabouts etc. are anti-clockwise.

In sharp contradistinction to this, have you witnesses the complicated traffic
signalling etc. needed where there ARE anti-clockwise roundabouts in the U.K.?
I am thinking particularly of Hammersmith (and now Vauxhall) Bus Stations. The
Hammersmith entry/exits are particularly tortuous, and several people have been
knocked down (I think one may have died) when trying to walk across the
Southern entry/exit lanes on Hammersmith Broadway (i.e. parallel to the
flyover) because of the odd direction of those lanes, which are opposite to the
way you would expect traffic to travel.

Marc.

Marc.

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
an anti-clockwise
one-way system is superior (because drivers have better visibility when
curving to the left).

There might be better visibility once in the square, curving to the left,
but
surely with traffic going clockwise, entry TO the roundabout, square or
whatever is much easier than if the traffic were coming from the left,
since
visibility is better to the entering driver, sitting on the right, if
traffic
is also coming from the right.

This is exactly right. Having driven my UK car(s) extensively
in Europe for the last three years, by far the hardest thing to do
in such a car is filtering right out of a minor road into a major
one. It's OK if you come to a stop at 90 degrees, but if the road
is wide enough so that you stop at a 60 degree angle your visability
of the traffic already on the road is close to zero without turning
your head into very akward position. Such a road design would
not last very long before it were changed back IMHO.

tim

"Niklas Karlsson" wrote in message
...
Mark Brader wrote on Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:44:21 -0000:
John Rowland:
Nearly all London squares have a clockwise one-way system, even though
when
all of the roads in and out of the square are one-way, an anti-clockwise
one-way system is superior (because drivers have better visibility when
curving to the left). ...

Perhaps this was done in preparation for a changeover to driving on the
right. After all, now that Britain is part of the EU...

Sweden had left-hand driving until September 3, 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H

The costs of doing this in the UK today would be prohibitive, both to
highway departments and to private individuals: every road junction would
need to have its white lines repainted on the other side; motorway junctions
and roundabouts would need their entry and exit roads re-aligning (assuming
that entry and exit roads are curved differently - maybe this isn't the
case); every car would need to scrapped and replaced with an LHD car.

It is probably this last point that is the biggest problem: in Sweden, "most
cars were LHD imports" according to the Wikipedia article (what about all
the home-produced Volvos?) and there were far fewer cars on the road,
whereas in Britain there are nowadays many more cars etc so the replacement
cost is far greater. I certainly wouldn't contemplate driving an RHD on the
right-hand side of the road because of the visibilty problems when
overtaking or pulling out obliquely from a motorway slip-road.

It is to be hoped that if we ever *do* change to driving on the right, we
don't adopt the Dutch and German rule of traffic joining a roundabout having
priority over traffic already on the roundabout. If everything about UK
driving at present is merely reversed (including roundabouts becoming
anti-clockwise) things will be a lot easier than if rules of priority are
altered at the same time. I understand (though I can't quote a source for
this) that Brussels has tried (and failed) to make the UK change to the
Dutch/German rule on roundabout priority.

And let's hope we don't ever succumb to the American rule of allowing
overtaking on the driver's blind side (ie his left in an RHD car). That, and
four-way stop junctions, were the only part of driving in America that
scared me ****less.

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
an anti-clockwise
one-way system is superior (because drivers have better visibility when
curving to the left).

There might be better visibility once in the square, curving to the left,
but
surely with traffic going clockwise, entry TO the roundabout, square or
whatever is much easier than if the traffic were coming from the left,
since
visibility is better to the entering driver, sitting on the right, if
traffic
is also coming from the right.

If London squares are configured as clockwise roundabouts, it allows the
normal "give way to traffic on your right that's already on the roundabout"
rule to be used; otherwise a contrdictory, counter-intuitive rule would have
to be used in those circumstances: hence there woudl be the need at every
junction to think "Is this a clockwise roundabout or an anticlockwise one?
Do I give way to traffic on my right or on my left in this specific case".
Better to have one rule for all situations.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:19:54 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Hi all,
vironment while only adding a few seconds to car journeys.

Why are so many London squares one way at all, and how long have they been
like that? Was the entire one-way system from Park Lane to Gower St/Kingsway
created in one go? Has it been regularly modified since?

Most squares in Westminster/Camden were converted to one-way operation
c.1968 as part of a series of traffic schemes to 'improve efficiency'.

The clockwise nature of operation prevents right turns both entering
and leaving the square - minimuises conflcts.


The removal of the Shoreditch one-way system is symbolic of this trend
being reversed.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Niklas Karlsson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

The costs of doing this in the UK today would be prohibitive, both to
highway departments and to private individuals:
[snip]
Oh, I have no doubt. I expect it would be prohibitive in Sweden as well,
had the switchover been postponed until today. I was mostly just
stirring the pot and adding a data point. :-)

I did read somewhere that officials are now regretting not having done
it when Sweden did, as it would have been feasible then, but isn't now.

The land-border matter was fairly crucial as well. Pretty much by
definition, Britain has no land borders (between countries that differ
in something as basic as which side of the road to drive, at least). :-)

There used to be a silly joke going round to the effect that the
Republic of Ireland (with whom we do, of course, have a land border) was
going to change to left-hand drive, but to make it easier, they would do
it in stages: lorries and buses one month, cars and cycles the next.....
Mind you, given that they measure distances in kilometres and speed in
miles per hour (or is it the other way round?), one does wonder....

It is to be hoped that if we ever *do* change to driving on the right, we
don't adopt the Dutch and German rule of traffic joining a roundabout having
priority over traffic already on the roundabout.

Sweden has not; the traffic on the roundabout has priority. (Unless this
has changed very recently.) Anything else seems very silly, really,
IMAO.

In France the traffic on the roundabout has priority, too, and usually
there are large notices telling traffic on the joining road that it
doesn't have priority. A pity the exits aren't (by our standards)
well-signposted - you have to know how the system works!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 2 January 2005

Martin Underwood wrote:
"Niklas Karlsson" wrote in message
...
Mark Brader wrote on Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:44:21 -0000:
John Rowland:
Nearly all London squares have a clockwise one-way system, even
though when all of the roads in and out of the square are
one-way, an anti-clockwise one-way system is superior (because
drivers have better visibility when curving to the left). ...

Perhaps this was done in preparation for a changeover to driving
on the right. After all, now that Britain is part of the EU...

Sweden had left-hand driving until September 3, 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H

The costs of doing this in the UK today would be prohibitive, ...
every car would need to scrapped and replaced with an LHD car.
... I certainly wouldn't contemplate driving an RHD on the
right-hand side of the road because of the visibilty problems
when overtaking or pulling out obliquely from a motorway slip-road.

Ever noticed those white oval plates with GB on them? Ever thought how
their owners managed to drive in LHD countries? The idea that you would
have to scrap all RHD cars if we changed the rule of the road is absurd.
Yes, there are some problems, and overtaking on narrow
single-carriageway roads without a passenger to help you is nasty , but
I've never had a problem on a motorway apart from paying at the péage
where the kiosk is on the British nearside.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Niklas Karlsson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

It is to be hoped that if we ever *do* change to driving on the
right, we don't adopt the Dutch and German rule of traffic
joining a roundabout having priority over traffic already on the
roundabout.

Sweden has not; the traffic on the roundabout has priority.
(Unless this
has changed very recently.) Anything else seems very silly, really,
IMAO.

In France the traffic on the roundabout has priority, too, and
usually there are large notices telling traffic on the joining road
that it doesn't have priority.

That's because the rule was changed some years ago. Before then
"priorité à droite" used to apply to roundabouts, giving joining traffic
the priority.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...
Niklas Karlsson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

There used to be a silly joke going round to the effect that the
Republic of Ireland (with whom we do, of course, have a land border) was
going to change to left-hand drive, but to make it easier, they would do
it in stages: lorries and buses one month, cars and cycles the next.....
Mind you, given that they measure distances in kilometres and speed in
miles per hour (or is it the other way round?), one does wonder....

When I went over to Ireland on business and had to drive down from Dublin to
Wexford, I was warned about the distance signs being in kilometres and the
speed signs in miles/hour - a bugger if you're trying to estimate how long
your journey will take!. It's even more of a bugger that most cars have
speedometers and mileometers calibrated primarily in km/hr or km - you have
to remember to read the faint red markings (mph) rather than the obvious
white km/hr markings!

I was told by the guy I was working for that the Irish authorities are
reluctant to change the speed limit signs in case people try to claim that
the signs still indicate mph and therefore that they are allowed to drive at
80 in a zone that had previously carried a 50 mph = 80 km/hr speed limit ;-)

I have "fond" memories of driving back from Wexford following my Irish
colleague who was to lead me through Dublin to the airport. He set off at a
hello of a rate (even by my standards!) and kept overtaking in impossible
situations. Should I go at a sensible speed (and risk losing him) or should
I follow as best I could? Somehow I managed to achieve the dual goals of
staying alive and not losing him! But then we hit heavy traffic in Dublin.
He signalled me into a hotel carpark where I did a rapid changeover of all
my luggage from my car to his, in a scene that must have looked suspiciously
like a Crimewatch reconstruction, because he decided we'd make better
progress in his car if he didn't have to keep checking whether I was keeping
up with him. We still missed my flight, but after a pint or two of Guinness
in the airport bar, the prospect of waiting a couple of hours to the next
available flight didn't seem so bad ;-)

"Richard J." wrote in message
news
Martin Underwood wrote:
"Niklas Karlsson" wrote in message
...

Ever noticed those white oval plates with GB on them? Ever thought how
their owners managed to drive in LHD countries? The idea that you would
have to scrap all RHD cars if we changed the rule of the road is absurd.
Yes, there are some problems, and overtaking on narrow
single-carriageway roads without a passenger to help you is nasty , but
I've never had a problem on a motorway apart from paying at the péage
where the kiosk is on the British nearside.

If I had to drive in mainland Europe, I'd always hire a car locally and
wouldn't contemplate taking my own RHD car over there - especially if I was
on my own and didn't have a passenger in the front seat who could check the
door mirror for overtaking traffic as I would if I was driving an LHD car.
Having to take my eyes off the road ahead while I checked and checked again
in the opposite mirror (or even over my left shoulder, peering between the
door pillars) is just too dangerous. I know plenty of people do it, but not
me.

RHD cars would effectively be priced out of the market, firstly because
their resale value would be much less than for an equivalent LHD car, and
secondly because the insurance would be so much greater... because insurance
companies perceive "wrong-sided" cars to be a much greater risk. OK, so the
problem would gradually decline as old RHD cars were replaced with new LHD
cars, but it would take a long time. Realistically, you'd need to combine
the changeover of cars and roads: without a change of cars, there'd be no
incentive to change the roads as there'd be resistance from people like me!

If we'd done it several decades ago, it would have been feasible, but
nowadays it's not a realistic option. What a shame that The World didn't
agree right from the outset of the motor car to drive on the same side of
the road - but there were issues of national pride at stake, especially
Napolean's policy of "if everyone else does it one way, we in France will do
it the other way" (I'm paraphrasing, but you get the gist). It's always
intrigued me that America chose to drive on the right, given the large
number of British people who settled there. No doubt the number of
immigrants from other European countries swayed the argument.

Which countries still drive on the left?

- UK/Ireland, obviously
- Channel Islands
- Australia
- Malta
- Gibraltar? Or does that drive on the left like Spain?
- Japan (I wonder why)

What about former British colonies like India? I *think* they still drive on
the left.

Anywhere else?