In article ,
(Ian Jelf) wrote:

The loss of the RM continues to be a source of concern, though. I
can't visualise bendies on the 38; but then I couldn't; envisage them
on the 73 either, so that proves nothing! :-)

Bendies on the 73 are a right pain for cyclists escaping from King's Cross
station towards Judd Street (or 12s in Whitehall for that matter). You
just can't get past them when they decide to cut in to the kerb in front
of you. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

To be honest, I was so cross with a 159 crew yesterday - they didn't
stop nearly long enough to allow people to get on, as they had been
hidden behind a larger bus, so nobody saw they were there - that I
thought "and the sooner *you* go to one-man operation, the better!"
Many, if not most, of the conductors are courteous, friendly and
helpful, but one or two are the exact opposite.

Well I did promise to give you an update on the 159 when more details
emerged. The new contract award was announced yesterday for the 159 - it
is staying with Arriva London South but will get new double deckers
which certainly means it loses its conductors as well. The vehicle
requirement has only gone up marginally so either the route is being
shortened or it is being reduced in frequency because it is normal for
the number of vehicles to rise when conversion to OPO happens as the
buses take longer to travel over the route.

No date has been announced but I am told that the 159 will vie with the
38 to be the last RM route in London with both of them being converted
in October this year. All the other routes go before then with the 19
being next on 2 April 2005.

The 38 is being converted to bendy buses so will stay with RMs to the
last day. I would not be remotely surprised to see the 159 go the same
way as the 137 which had lost almost all of its RMs by the official
conversion date. No information has leaked out about the 13, 14 and 22
conversion except they are some time in the Summer.

--
Paul C


Can I also thank you for the update Paul. I'm very relieved the bendy buses
are being used - double-deckers would not really make sense for this
extremely busy route.

Do we know yet if they're reducing the vehicle requirement dramatically (as
with the 73)?

James

Jim wrote:
To be honest, I was so cross with a 159 crew yesterday - they didn't
stop nearly long enough to allow people to get on, as they had been
hidden behind a larger bus, so nobody saw they were there - that I
thought "and the sooner *you* go to one-man operation, the better!"
Many, if not most, of the conductors are courteous, friendly and
helpful, but one or two are the exact opposite.

Well I did promise to give you an update on the 159 when more details
emerged. The new contract award was announced yesterday for the 159 - it
is staying with Arriva London South but will get new double deckers
which certainly means it loses its conductors as well. The vehicle
requirement has only gone up marginally so either the route is being
shortened or it is being reduced in frequency because it is normal for
the number of vehicles to rise when conversion to OPO happens as the
buses take longer to travel over the route.

No date has been announced but I am told that the 159 will vie with the
38 to be the last RM route in London with both of them being converted
in October this year. All the other routes go before then with the 19
being next on 2 April 2005.

The 38 is being converted to bendy buses so will stay with RMs to the
last day. I would not be remotely surprised to see the 159 go the same
way as the 137 which had lost almost all of its RMs by the official
conversion date. No information has leaked out about the 13, 14 and 22
conversion except they are some time in the Summer.

--
Paul C



Can I also thank you for the update Paul. I'm very relieved the bendy buses
are being used - double-deckers would not really make sense for this
extremely busy route.

Can a bendy actually make the turn from New Oxford St into Charing Cross
Road at St Giles Circus?

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:42:40 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote:

Can a bendy actually make the turn from New Oxford St into Charing Cross
Road at St Giles Circus?

Yes - I have seen a route 25 turn short at TCR and run into the "bus
station" underneath Centrepoint.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 1 Feb 2005 09:35:50 -0800, "Rupert Candy"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

Well I did promise to give you an update on the 159 when more details
emerged. The new contract award was announced yesterday for the 159 -
it
is staying with Arriva London South but will get new double deckers
which certainly means it loses its conductors as well.

Thanks for the update Paul - presumably this means more VLWs like the
137? It could be a lot worse...

Actually they are DWs - standing for DAF / Wright Pulsar Geminis
although the DAF name has been replaced by VDL as the company name.
Initially Wrights would only body Volvo chassis with the Gemini bodywork
but given that Arriva are the importer for VDL chassis it was worth
Wright's while to modify the design to permit the use of VDL chassis.
Route 19 is getting DWs with a modified chassis design with improved
suspension.

I would not be astonished to see DWs ordered for the 159 but Arriva do
swap about between chassis and bodywork builders so it is entirely
possible that you might get Transbus bodied Volvos or even something
else that is completely original like the new rumoured Transbus Enviro
400 but that is a long shot!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:51:32 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message .com,
Rupert Candy writes
Paul Corfield wrote:

Well I did promise to give you an update on the 159 when more details
emerged. The new contract award was announced yesterday for the 159 -
it
is staying with Arriva London South but will get new double deckers
which certainly means it loses its conductors as well.

Thanks for the update Paul - presumably this means more VLWs like the
137? It could be a lot worse...

Indeed, I for one think that the VLWs look very smart. I've also heard
some surprisingly positive remarks about their appearance from non
transport interested friends and colleagues.

I would agree with you on that. I think Wright have produced an
excellent vehicle and deserve their success. The 3 axle air conditioned
Wright Explorer that Kowloon Motor Bus have in service in Hong Kong is a
very smart vehicle indeed - I used one when I was in HK in January.

The loss of the RM continues to be a source of concern, though. I
can't visualise bendies on the 38; but then I couldn't; envisage them
on the 73 either, so that proves nothing! :-)

I can envisage bendies on the 38 quite easily apart from the left turn
into the Piccadilly contra flow bus lane although that was eased out a
while back to allow LFDDs to make the turn. While I will be very sad to
see the 38 go over as it is a route I have used for years I don't mind
bendy buses. I understand all the criticisms that are made and some
aspects of bendy bus operation remain unproven but the RMs are in a
dreadful state now and they are going to be withdrawn come what may. I
think TfL will be in for a rough ride over the rest of this year because
the press will push the RM story for all it is worth and the public will
gain much more visibility of their removal. However there is no
political risk to Ken from the policy so nothing will change.

Any more news, Paul, about the mooted "heritage routes"?

Well the routes have gone out to tender as tranche 203B in the TfL
tendering programme. I have seen no details as to where they will run
but I understand that the vehicles must be Euro 2 emission control
compliant [1] and that buses cannot be routed via Oxford Street. The
basic proposition is that the routes must be commercial in nature (!)
and there is no clarity as to whether Travelcards / Bus Passes will be
permitted.

Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
The other issue is where are the RMs going to come from? Most of the
surplus ones have been sold on by the private bus companies where they
own them and no one knows what TfL are going to do with the proportion
of the fleet that they own and lease to operators.

IMO the key to commercial success is Travelcard / Bus Pass availability
and the recognition that the routes are part of the TfL network with all
of the support that that brings. If TfL say the routes are "private" and
not part of the network then I can't see them succeeding.

My more cynical view is that this tendering exercise is a gesture by TfL
who will then blame the private sector for not coming to the rescue of
the Routemaster. All TfL need to say is that they will approve any
reasonable request for a London Local Service Agreement from a competent
operator who wishes to run a RM route in Central London - I wonder why
they haven't said this?

[1] and just how many RMs are compliant with this standard?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I understand all the criticisms that are made and some
aspects of bendy bus operation remain unproven but the RMs are in a
dreadful state now
Absolutely. Except that those on the 13 seem to be in *far* better
condition than any others.

Any more news, Paul, about the mooted "heritage routes"?

Well the routes have gone out to tender as tranche 203B in the TfL
tendering programme. I have seen no details as to where they will run
but I understand that the vehicles must be Euro 2 emission control
compliant [1] and that buses cannot be routed via Oxford Street. The
basic proposition is that the routes must be commercial in nature (!)
and there is no clarity as to whether Travelcards / Bus Passes will be
permitted.

Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I know that when I worked for Guide Friday in Stratford, Birmingham and
Oxford we had them available because there was a fuel rebate issue and I
suspect that the same is true in London. However, outside the
capital., they're simply registered as commercial bus routes. I would
have thought that that was very difficult to do within the GLA area.
Evidently not.

IMO the key to commercial success is Travelcard / Bus Pass availability
and the recognition that the routes are part of the TfL network with all
of the support that that brings.
I agree 100%. No Travelcard availability, no success, I feel.

Maybe they could accept Travelcards but not bus passes or Oyster
Pre-Pay, a la San Francisco's cable cars, which are part of the Muni
fare system with some restrictions, such as no free transfers.

(Unless we go for the Melbourne method and make the heritage route free
of charge, of course. That might be difficult to reconcile with
"commercially viable" though!)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:42:40 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote:

Can a bendy actually make the turn from New Oxford St into Charing Cross
Road at St Giles Circus?

Yes - I have seen a route 25 turn short at TCR and run into the "bus
station" underneath Centrepoint.

So have I and it had a lot of difficulty doing it.

However, maybe that was down to the individual driver?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

Paul C had earlier written:
Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I didn't even know they did! Goodness, you learn something new every
day - I thought they were strictly "do-the-tourist" traps and have
always steered visiting friends away from them.


--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

In message , Mrs Redboots
writes
Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

Paul C had earlier written:
Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I didn't even know they did!
There are usually "strip signs" in the downstairs windows saying
something like ""Local Fares Available".

Goodness, you learn something new every
day - I thought they were strictly "do-the-tourist" traps and have
always steered visiting friends away from them.
Continue to steer people away from them. IMHO they're pretty poor
value unless you're *really* strapped for time. Spend your money on a
walking tour in a Travelcard and a good guide book and book as many
walking tours as you can.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk