In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I understand all the criticisms that are made and some
aspects of bendy bus operation remain unproven but the RMs are in a
dreadful state now
Absolutely. Except that those on the 13 seem to be in *far* better
condition than any others.

Any more news, Paul, about the mooted "heritage routes"?

Well the routes have gone out to tender as tranche 203B in the TfL
tendering programme. I have seen no details as to where they will run
but I understand that the vehicles must be Euro 2 emission control
compliant [1] and that buses cannot be routed via Oxford Street. The
basic proposition is that the routes must be commercial in nature (!)
and there is no clarity as to whether Travelcards / Bus Passes will be
permitted.

Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I know that when I worked for Guide Friday in Stratford, Birmingham and
Oxford we had them available because there was a fuel rebate issue and I
suspect that the same is true in London. However, outside the
capital., they're simply registered as commercial bus routes. I would
have thought that that was very difficult to do within the GLA area.
Evidently not.

IMO the key to commercial success is Travelcard / Bus Pass availability
and the recognition that the routes are part of the TfL network with all
of the support that that brings.
I agree 100%. No Travelcard availability, no success, I feel.

Maybe they could accept Travelcards but not bus passes or Oyster
Pre-Pay, a la San Francisco's cable cars, which are part of the Muni
fare system with some restrictions, such as no free transfers.

(Unless we go for the Melbourne method and make the heritage route free
of charge, of course. That might be difficult to reconcile with
"commercially viable" though!)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

Paul C had earlier written:
Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I didn't even know they did! Goodness, you learn something new every
day - I thought they were strictly "do-the-tourist" traps and have
always steered visiting friends away from them.


--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

In message , Mrs Redboots
writes
Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

Paul C had earlier written:
Now given that existing sightseeing routes are permitted to carry
ordinary passengers paying cash fares alongside those who are taking a
tour or "hopping on and off" with a day ticket but typically are NOT
beseiged with eager Londoners wanting to travel on them I think there
will be problems in getting bids from bus companies to run these routes.
I've always been surprised that the sightseeing routes *do* have local
fares.

I didn't even know they did!
There are usually "strip signs" in the downstairs windows saying
something like ""Local Fares Available".

Goodness, you learn something new every
day - I thought they were strictly "do-the-tourist" traps and have
always steered visiting friends away from them.
Continue to steer people away from them. IMHO they're pretty poor
value unless you're *really* strapped for time. Spend your money on a
walking tour in a Travelcard and a good guide book and book as many
walking tours as you can.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:47:13 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

There are usually "strip signs" in the downstairs windows saying
something like ""Local Fares Available".

I've seen those, and often wondered what the local fares are? Is it
the standard quid?

If not, how are they permitted to run a "private" stage carriage
service in London?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:27:45 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I understand all the criticisms that are made and some
aspects of bendy bus operation remain unproven but the RMs are in a
dreadful state now
Absolutely. Except that those on the 13 seem to be in *far* better
condition than any others.

How much of that is "59 stock syndrome", where the maintenance programme
was run down as the replacements became (well, were supposed to become)
available?

Interesting thread this.
Myself and a colleague visited Londres for the 36 Finale and sampled a
variety of Omnibus types from the ancien regeime RT to some "Just out of the
Box" Wrights products.
The condition of the RT`s can to an extent be disregarded as they are in
active preservation,however their rather good ride quality using steel leaf
springs WAS something of a surprise.
Even at full capacity the RT`s appeared to cope very well in this (important
for a Bus Passenger) regard.
It is all the more incredible when one considers that a 3 Bell Load of 21st
Century Tubbies would weigh considerably more than the immediate post war
sugar less ration book holders.
Making a point to travel on a variety of "Ordinary" Routemasters we swiftly
came to disregard the Cosmetic appearance of the approaching Bus.
Without exception,of the 13 RM/L`s we sampled,the Interior`s were well
within acceptable norms,with the thickness of the seat cushioning and the
rigidity of the seat framing well above "Modern" standards.
Tellingly,as we passed the Turkish Art exhibition in Central London,a fellow
passenger remarked to her copmpanion that "These Old Buses ARE
art",whereupon a spirited discussion ensued on the teaching of and
experience levels of what is loosely defined as "Art"......BUT....if you
relax enough and inhale deeply the lady DOES have a point......and it is a
Point which is TOTALLY unique to London.......!
Even more incredible was the turnout of the Marshall Refurbished RM`s on the
13 route,with some of them appearing to have come straight from some
showroom...Immaculate inside with bright lighting and clean upholstery etc.
They combined this with a sparkling performance with very rapid yet smooth
progress being made when conditions allowed.
The "Out of the Box" syndrome does influence peoples appreciation of things
which is why EVERY new car is a fantastic motor......only when one returns
six months later are the niggling faults beginning to get on the proud
owners nerves.
The remainder of our journeys on a variety of Modern Low Floor Double
Deckers were quite acceptable and comfortable.
The exception to this was during the frequent heavy bursts of rain on the
day,when the condensation levels inside grew to uncomfortable levels,a
problem which was nowhere near as apparrent on the RM/L`s.
My lasting memory however of Routemaster operation is of how much faster and
smoother it all was in passenger movement terms and this was underlined on
our last journey on an LFDD which as we trundled through deepest Kensington
arrived at a stop to find a very well turned Neuclear Family with no less
than Four closely spaced children,THREE of whom occupied a Buggy each.
What happened next was proof to me that much of this Low Floor Easy Access
stuff is largely PR Puff and dangerous Puff at that.
As Mummy and Daddy performed a loading operation which would embarrass a
steveadore the THREE occupied buggies were slotted (stuffed) into whatever
space was available just aft of the stairwell and directly in front of the
exit doors.
Whilst Mummy and Daddy took seats nearby the older child was given the task
of being a parking attendant to her siblings and of keeping their vehicles
under control.
Now,whilst the Bus had plenty of seats available upstairs,the Lower Saloon
resembled something like rush hour in Mombai with a gap in the service.
There were several instances of people attempting to come downstairs to
alight who could not do so and even more of people at the rear being
restrained by a ring of "BeBe Comfort" steel..
Eventually we managed to reach our destination and I had to twist one of the
Buggies around by 90 deg to get past it..
Looking back into the Shiny New bus as it pulled away I could not but wonder
if this style of journey offered ANY benefit in efficiency to Londoners.
What should have been a rapid smooth journey had disintegrated into a
"Victor Meldrew" affair with the only missing ingredient being a Wheelchair
Bound passenger attempting to board our bus....Now THAT would have been an
interesting scenario........
My only hope for the remaining months of operation of an Artistic Classic is
that somebody will mount a campaign called .."WASH THE ROUTEMASTERS" thus
preventing Johnny Foreigner from coming out with the Dirty British tag !!!!!

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:52:04 -0000, "Alek" wrote:

My lasting memory however of Routemaster operation is of how much faster and
smoother it all was in passenger movement terms and this was underlined on
our last journey on an LFDD which as we trundled through deepest Kensington
arrived at a stop to find a very well turned Neuclear Family with no less
than Four closely spaced children,THREE of whom occupied a Buggy each.
What happened next was proof to me that much of this Low Floor Easy Access
stuff is largely PR Puff and dangerous Puff at that.
As Mummy and Daddy performed a loading operation which would embarrass a
steveadore the THREE occupied buggies were slotted (stuffed) into whatever
space was available just aft of the stairwell and directly in front of the
exit doors.
Whilst Mummy and Daddy took seats nearby the older child was given the task
of being a parking attendant to her siblings and of keeping their vehicles
under control.
Now,whilst the Bus had plenty of seats available upstairs,the Lower Saloon
resembled something like rush hour in Mombai with a gap in the service.
There were several instances of people attempting to come downstairs to
alight who could not do so and even more of people at the rear being
restrained by a ring of "BeBe Comfort" steel..
Eventually we managed to reach our destination and I had to twist one of the
Buggies around by 90 deg to get past it..


God help anybody who uses buses with children.

Mums with kids and mobility impaired people are only a core section of
the market.

Sod 'em and let's focus service provision around the bus hairies....


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk