There was a short piece on BBC london news on TV last night about
the new vic line trains and an interview with some bod at (I
think) Bombardier. Anyway , turns out that it looks like the
prototypes at least will have less seating (quelle surprise) and
a lot of what seating is left will be flip up so theres room for
all these mythical wheelchair bound passengers we keep hearing
about but no one has ever actually seen. Wonderful. So not only
will more people have to stand but the ones sitting will have a
much less comfortable journey too. Well theres progress for you.
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.

B2003

Boltar wrote:
There was a short piece on BBC london news on TV last night about
the new vic line trains and an interview with some bod at (I
think) Bombardier. Anyway , turns out that it looks like the
prototypes at least will have less seating (quelle surprise) and
a lot of what seating is left will be flip up so theres room for
all these mythical wheelchair bound passengers we keep hearing
about but no one has ever actually seen. Wonderful. So not only
will more people have to stand but the ones sitting will have a
much less comfortable journey too. Well theres progress for you.
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.

In Paris, the tip-up seats[1] work very well. They have mostly normal
seating, with the tip-ups near the doors, the intention being that when
the train is not too busy there is plenty of seating, but that when it
gets busy those people will stand up, enabling more people to fit in the
carriage.

When I say it works very well, I mean that as soon as it gets busy,
people immediately stand up and make room for others.

As I am sure you know, they have them here on the Northern Line now but
they don't work very well at all, as people are just too selfish to let
anyone else on once they are on the train and comfortable. (Yet, they
will moan if they can't actually get on in the first place.)

Same problem with the "priority luggage" areas on Piccadilly trains -
people quite rightly stand in them when they can, yet make no attempt to
move if someone gets on with a large suitcase, which they are then
forced to leave in the middle of the carriage, thus getting in the way
of everyone else.

[1] and are called "strapontins" which sounds rude and always makes me
smile :-)

On 9 Feb 2005 01:10:42 -0800, "Boltar" wrote:

Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.

I suspect that the seating arrangement will be similar to the Northern
and Piccadilly line trains, both of which I recall are provided with
tip-ups in places.

The reduction will be by way of the removal of the transverse seats,
which has already happened on other deep-level lines because they
aren't wide enough for two average people, and don't have enough
legroom for anything other than midgets to sit opposite one another.

The longitudinal layout has proven itself on other lines - I doubt
that cost has a lot to do with it. The availability of a place to put
luggage or a wheelchair without blocking the vestibules (where the
train isn't crush loaded of course) seems a sensible idea, and again
is helpful in the Northern and Picc trains.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:

Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.

They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back
in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they
haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro,
there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours
or when the train is busy, so that there is more room for standing
passengers.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

Boltar wrote:
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.

IMO flip up seats are more expensive than normal fixed seats - they
move and hence need more maintenance, they require more spares to be
kept vs. having all fixed seats, and they require more space - you
can't house equipment under them.

A cheaper option would be perch seats, which one leans against. The
Jubilee 1996 stock has these in place of the Northern 1995's flip ups,
which often seem to have broken springs and don't return to upright.


Dominic

Neil Williams wrote:
I suspect that the seating arrangement will be similar to the
Northern
and Piccadilly line trains, both of which I recall are provided with
tip-ups in places.

From the computer sim images they showed it looked like there'd be a
lot
more flip ups than on the northern (theres none on the picc).

The reduction will be by way of the removal of the transverse seats,
which has already happened on other deep-level lines because they
aren't wide enough for two average people, and don't have enough
legroom for anything other than midgets to sit opposite one another.

True , they are narrow , but small people and kids can sit happily on
them and larger people choose to stand. With less seats they both get
to stand. They also replaced the transverse seats on the C stock and
replaced them with longitudinal seats which seemed to be a child sized
profile which no one can sit comfortably in.


The longitudinal layout has proven itself on other lines - I doubt
that cost has a lot to do with it. The availability of a place to
put
luggage or a wheelchair without blocking the vestibules (where the
train isn't crush loaded of course) seems a sensible idea, and again
is helpful in the Northern and Picc trains.

A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train
don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in
the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite
what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all
wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember
seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system.

B2003

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:


Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are
probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this
in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all.


They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back
in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they
haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro,
there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours
or when the train is busy

and, importantly, people *do*!!!

They also let people off first before getting on; when on, stand aside
to let people off; sometimes even step off temporarily to let people off!

And they do all this with no announcements!

How different to here, where the same old mantra is repeated 6 times at
almost every station, and is routinely ignored.

Contrary to stereotype, the Parisian commuter is a much more considerate
being than the London one.

A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train
don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in
the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite
what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all
wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember
seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system.


There are very few wheelchair users on the tube, but I have certainly seen
more than that, as I am on the Jubilee line extension, about the only part
of the tube that is actually wheelchair accessible. There aren't any
accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at
present.

But there are plans for several major station reconstructions which will
include disabled access, some of which will be on the Victoria line, so the
space might be more useful in the future that it would be now, and remember
that the trains won't be delivered for several years yet and should last a
generation, so in the lifetime of the trains I would think many more parts
of the tube will be accessible.

Personally I fully support the improvements in accessibility, wherever it is
economic to do so; while I am able bodied, some of the lifts on the Jubilee
line are well-used by many for whom steps are a pain without actually being
disabled (the elderly, those with heavy luggage or children in prams etc.) I
have even had to queue for the lifts at Green Park when going to and from
Heathrow with a suitcase due to the number of people changing trains with
luggage!

Boltar wrote:
political correctness Taliban

Ooh, triple bonus points, thanks!

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Tony Wilson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:

There aren't any
accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at
present.

They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other
stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users.

Personally I fully support the improvements in accessibility, wherever it is
economic to do so; while I am able bodied, some of the lifts on the Jubilee
line are well-used by many for whom steps are a pain without actually being
disabled (the elderly, those with heavy luggage or children in prams etc.) I
have even had to queue for the lifts at Green Park when going to and from
Heathrow with a suitcase due to the number of people changing trains with
luggage!

The lifts on the DLR (at least, at East India which I was using
regularly at one stage), were marked with both a wheelchair and a
pushchair icon.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos