"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Ian F.
writes


IMO, Oyster has little to offer significant numbers of Londoners until
surface rail is brought into the scheme.


It offer EVERYONE the benefit of not having to wait behind oyster users at
ticket machine as often. The benefit to none oyster users of oster can be
more then the benefit to oyster users.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:48:09 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote:

"Graham J" wrote in
:


Would there be any point in loading a one day Travelcard (say zones
1-4) onto an Oyster card on a day when I need it, or might I just as
well carry on buying paper tickets?

You can't actually load a one day travelcard onto an Oyster. Although
I'd find it useful myself I can see why they never bothered with it as
it is just as easy to hand you a paper ticket.

Is this one of the things that will change on Feb 27th? Or does capping
limit pre-pay deductions to the cost of a travelcard but not actually
create a travelcard (and thus not valid on national rail unless you could
use pre-pay for the journey you are making)?

Having seen some of the training materials today and looked through the
wide range of examples of how it will work your statement is broadly
correct. As many NR stations do not have pre-pay validity then it is
pretty pointless to opt for capping to One Day ticket prices when the
card cannot record your trips. People needing to use NR services are a
specific exception to the "best value" facility for capping and the
training literature advises the continued use of One Day Travelcards for
such customers.

It is stated in the TfL Board agenda papers for 9/2/05 that the DfT have
decreed that TfL zonal fares will apply to all NR journeys within the
zonal area by 2007. Implementation will be on a TOC by TOC basis
between now and 2007. Pre-pay will be part of the roll out of this
policy.

I hope the lack of information on offical tfl sites does not mean the
details are still being worked out...

I think you can rest assured that a hell of a lot of detail has been
worked out.

The simple basis is that trip data is used to determine what modes,
times and zones people travel in. The caps are then set at the
appropriate one day ticket.

If you exclusively use buses and tramlink then you will be capped to the
One Day Bus Pass price.

If you travel across LUL, buses and trams during off peak times then you
will be capped to the equivalent off peak one day travelcard for the
zones travelled through.

When trips are a combination of peak and off peak bands then it gets
more complicated as the cap can be the lower of the appropriate day
travelcard *or* the summation of say a peak Tube fare (e.g. Z6-Z!) for
your first trip and then if all your subsequent trips were in Z12 then
the Z12 day travelcard price. I have to say that looking at the more
complex examples used in the training material that I now understand why
it has taken time to get the system knocked into some sort of shape to
provide the cheapest trips given the complex range of combinations.

I'll also happily confess that I don't fully understand all of the
examples but I haven't had time to really study them. I'm not qualified
to go on the training course but I'd secretly like to go on it to fully
understand what goes on. Still they are asking for us office people to
volunteer to help with the launch and provide advice at stations so
perhaps I'll get to have a basic briefing, don my hi-vi and freeze to
death in a windy ticket hall :-)
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

However, without more detail of the specific journeys (especially how
you get from Zone 3 to Central London), it is impossible to say whether
or not you would be better off.

I usually buy a Z1-4 off peak travelcard and travel into central London
using the tube, although sometimes I go overground to Victoria and take a
bus, or a tube from there - in Balham we have tube and overground and it's
usually quicker to go by train to Victoria than by tube to Victoria. I
travel into Z1, on average, twice a week. Other times, I might buy a Z2-6
off-peak travelcard and use it locally, sometimes to go to Croydon,
sometimes to go via Clapham Junction to Richmond or Kingston or elsewhere.
Other times, I might just use local buses. The majority of the travel is
off-peak, although occasionally I have to go into the West End early
morning.

If you could give me some advice, it would be great - I've been travelling
in London all my life (I'm 54), but the Oyster situation has me baffled!

Ian

Ian F. wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...


However, without more detail of the specific journeys (especially how
you get from Zone 3 to Central London), it is impossible to say whether
or not you would be better off.


I usually buy a Z1-4 off peak travelcard and travel into central London
using the tube, although sometimes I go overground to Victoria and take a
bus, or a tube from there - in Balham we have tube and overground and it's
usually quicker to go by train to Victoria than by tube to Victoria. I
travel into Z1, on average, twice a week. Other times, I might buy a Z2-6
off-peak travelcard and use it locally, sometimes to go to Croydon,
sometimes to go via Clapham Junction to Richmond or Kingston or elsewhere.
Other times, I might just use local buses. The majority of the travel is
off-peak, although occasionally I have to go into the West End early
morning.

If you could give me some advice, it would be great - I've been travelling
in London all my life (I'm 54), but the Oyster situation has me baffled!

Basically, once capping comes, in Oyster is good for everything apart
from National Rail.

If you plan to use NR as part of a day's travels, then Oyster is most
likely not for you unless it's a simple return Tube+rail trip where the
rail fare is cheaper than the price of the travelcard minus the Oyster
return price for the Tube.

So Oyster would be good if you were travelling around just on local
buses or used the Tube from Balham into London and any bus or Tube
services in London. But if you want to use overground rail into Victoria
or Clapham Junction then it's probably best to stick with paper Travelcards.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

So Oyster would be good if you were travelling around just on local
buses or used the Tube from Balham into London and any bus or Tube
services in London. But if you want to use overground rail into Victoria
or Clapham Junction then it's probably best to stick with paper
Travelcards.

Thanks Dave - most helpful.

Ian

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:48:09 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote:


"Graham J" wrote in
:


Would there be any point in loading a one day Travelcard (say zones
1-4) onto an Oyster card on a day when I need it, or might I just as
well carry on buying paper tickets?

You can't actually load a one day travelcard onto an Oyster. Although
I'd find it useful myself I can see why they never bothered with it as
it is just as easy to hand you a paper ticket.

Is this one of the things that will change on Feb 27th? Or does capping
limit pre-pay deductions to the cost of a travelcard but not actually
create a travelcard (and thus not valid on national rail unless you could
use pre-pay for the journey you are making)?


Having seen some of the training materials today and looked through the
wide range of examples of how it will work your statement is broadly
correct. As many NR stations do not have pre-pay validity then it is
pretty pointless to opt for capping to One Day ticket prices when the
card cannot record your trips. People needing to use NR services are a
specific exception to the "best value" facility for capping and the
training literature advises the continued use of One Day Travelcards for
such customers.

It is stated in the TfL Board agenda papers for 9/2/05 that the DfT have
decreed that TfL zonal fares will apply to all NR journeys within the
zonal area by 2007. Implementation will be on a TOC by TOC basis
between now and 2007. Pre-pay will be part of the roll out of this
policy.

That's good news to me as a prepay user, and to potential rail users who
are put off by the complicated fare structure. Hopefully it will
encourage people to use rail services where they are perhaps currently
catching a bus to a Tube station just because the fare situation is so
odd - this must apply to a number of non-regular users in places like
Battersea which has good rail services but puts off single-journey users
by requiring you to pay separate rail and Tube fares to get to many
parts of central London.

I hope the lack of information on offical tfl sites does not mean the
details are still being worked out...

I think you can rest assured that a hell of a lot of detail has been
worked out.
(snipped useful info)

Thanks for all the info, Paul - it looks like the system is designed to
work as intelligently as possible. The only fall-down I can see is where
there are multiple possible routes you could take on your journey, but
this is the same issue as with current prepay anyway.

I never fully understood these borderline cases - are there generally
validators at interchange points on the "cheaper" route? I'm thinking of
routes such as White City - West Kensington which could be done via
Ealing Broadway (cheaper) or Notting Hill Gate (expensive). This will
become a lot more complicated when rail services are absorbed into the
prepay system, as many journeys will become possible avoiding Zone 1 by
using the North, West and East London Lines and the DLR.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Having seen some of the training materials today and looked through the
wide range of examples of how it will work your statement is broadly
correct.

Hopefully the Tramlink problem has been solved. At the moment they expect
you to touch in before every leg of a tram journey on Oyster even though the
paper ticket allows you to change trams.

It is stated in the TfL Board agenda papers for 9/2/05 that the DfT have
decreed that TfL zonal fares will apply to all NR journeys within the
zonal area by 2007. Implementation will be on a TOC by TOC basis
between now and 2007. Pre-pay will be part of the roll out of this
policy.

Interesting. Could have sworn it was only today I was reading how the TOCs
weren't playing ball. I would have thought since it was clear that it was
going to happen anyway sooner or later that the TOCs might have been better
off getting involved as soon as they could. Better to be seen to be a
willing and enthusiastic partner if you want influence.

G.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:48:09 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote:

When trips are a combination of peak and off peak bands then it gets
more complicated as the cap can be the lower of the appropriate day
travelcard *or* the summation of say a peak Tube fare (e.g. Z6-Z!) for
your first trip and then if all your subsequent trips were in Z12 then
the Z12 day travelcard price. I have to say that looking at the more
complex examples used in the training material that I now understand why
it has taken time to get the system knocked into some sort of shape to
provide the cheapest trips given the complex range of combinations.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul - This question to the mayor from the GLA site states that the
Zone1-6 off peak cap will be £5.70 instead of the £6.00 travelcard price.

http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=9496

Has this exception been implemented as promised?

Thanks

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:08:32 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote:



If the announcement meant that you could go further and put a full-blown
one-day travelcard onto an Oyster, it would surely have said so - and
would have been much more dramatic as a result!

....and so much more useful! Why *can't* you load a ODTC onto oyster?
Surely its not technically difficult?

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:50:58 +0000, k wrote:

...and so much more useful! Why *can't* you load a ODTC onto oyster?
Surely its not technically difficult?

Because it wouldn't be a true ODTC, because you couldn't use it on
National Rail.

Had the LT Card survived, that might have been of use for this, but I
don't see why anyone would buy one as ODTCs, certainly off-peak, were
better value.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.