Mrs Redboots wrote:

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I
*thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket
per zone, same as the metro?

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

--
John Ray

Dave Arquati wrote:
[...]
I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but
take into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact
that central London is much busier than outer London, and keep
people happy when they can easily understand what fare they will
pay.

How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work
under a point-to-point system?

West Yorkshire and the West Midlands have the best of both worlds.
There's a zone map for the purposes of offering zonal travelcards, but
there's also a point-to-point system for season tickets and walk-on
fares.

--
PGP key ID E85DC776 - finger for full key

Rupert Candy wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Mrs Redboots wrote:

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs,
no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

Annabel - it must have been a while since you've been on the 3 for you
to describe a long journey on it as "a joy"... (On the other hand, IMHO
the 137 is a very pleasant way to travel from this corner of London to
Oxford St!)

Yes, I don't like the 3 very much, you are quite right. On the other
hand, it does go through some nice parts of London before crossing the
river!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005:

Mrs Redboots wrote:

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

If you read French, there's a very interesting history of the Paris bus
network on http://tinyurl.com/3rhfv which says, among other things, that
the 1970s were really the nadir of the network, and that they have done
a great deal to improve things since then.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

Dave Liney wrote:
"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...


Compare this to TfL's fares, where the vast majority of the fares
structure is printed in a 16 page booklet (about the only thing that's
not in there being staff privilege tickets and Railcard discounted
Travelcards).


They don't list the reduced prices for some short boundary-crossing journeys
either. I've also never seen them published online by TfL either. You have
to go to the station involved to find them out, or look in the ATOC's
National Fares Manual. That these reduced fares exist does show that London
Underground realise that a strict zonal pricing system can lead to "unfair"
fares.

I only thought these applied to season tickets until I tried it out. The
short hops allowed are quite reasonable - for example, Gloucester Road
to Holland Park warrants a £1.70 fare, as does High Street Kensington to
Fulham Broadway. I presume they apply if you travel from a station
adjacent to a boundary to a station one removed from a boundary, but
that's just based on those examples. I imagine it only works for hops
across the Z1 boundary too, as other short hop fares will be £1.10 anyway.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:39:59 -0000, "Solar Penguin"
wrote:


And why is being individually priced a bad thing? Look at the example I
gave elsewhere in the thread: the Northern Line ticket from Morden to
Waterloo costs the same as the ticket from Morden going all the way to
Mill Hill East. Passangers to Waterloo are paying for around twice as
much journey than they actually use. An individually priced
Morden-Waterloo ticket would solve this problem.


As would a fairly simple change to the zonal fares system, which would
be to count the number of zone boundaries crossed, rather than to
count which zones are entered. I'm sure I've seen this kind of
ticketing elsewhere. There are plenty of point-to-point systems which
"max out" like this one, as well - I believe Deutsche Bahn's
semi-kilometric InterCity fares system has a maximum fare.

Counting zone boundaries crossed is useless if you want to discourage
people from entering or using a particularly busy part of the network if
they don't need to. Under that system, a journey from Shadwell to New
Cross would be priced the same as one from King's Cross to Victoria.

All of which is a moot point, anyway. Given that a public transport
system has been planned and is being operated based on average traffic
etc, there is no direct cost that can be attributed to one person's
usage of the system, because whether that one person was there or not
the system would operate anyway, and the fuel cost attributed to one
passenger is tiny enough to be irrelevant. Whatever means is used to
define the fares is therefore a model.

That's true, but it doesn't stop the fares system from being used to
restrain demand.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Rupert Candy wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

[snip useful and clear analysis]

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be £2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.

However, as a YP railcard holder I can get a CDR from West Dulwich to
Victoria for around £2. Since railcards don't have any effect on zonal
fares, a comparable journey via bus 3 and Brixton will end up costing
over twice this. I wonder if they've thought about what will happen to
railcards if they go zonal?

I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but
usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With
the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were
fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it
would be odd to abandon a discount again.

A possible solution in our case might be for TfL to combine their
Student discount scheme with the YP Railcard scheme, with
Student-registered Oysters incurring the YP discounts whereever
necessary. Complicated though!

Given that return fares between the termini and South London stations
would rise considerably, TfL may have to offer some compromise to
satisfy the travelling public.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but
usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With
the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were
fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it
would be odd to abandon a discount again.

A Zones 1-6 ODTC, normally GBP6.00, is discounted to GBP4.80 using a Gold
Card. Presumably this applies to a ticket bought for a travelling companion,
or for a ticket bought by the holder of a Gold Card which is not a
Travelcard, e.g. one valid for a journey outside London, such as Newhaven
Harbour to Town. Does this apply to other railcards - obviously a Network
Card would come up against the GBP10 minimum, except at weekends? Apparently
there is no discount on a ODTC with validity less than all zones.

Peter

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:39:53 +0000, John Ray
wrote:

Mrs Redboots wrote:

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I
*thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket
per zone, same as the metro?

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number. It is then valid for travel within the zones purchases.
Admittedly it is a sort of premium product but it is very handy if you
need to use SNCF or RER services beyond the central area. It also opens
up the bus network for you to use.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value
for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't
publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite
pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.

--
John Ray