"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:12:05 -0000, "Rich Mallard"
wrote:

What about National Rail season tickets? I pay about 50 quid less for a
monthly season ticket from Bexley (Z6) to London for a rail-only season
ticket rather than buy an inflated-price Travelcard which I don't need
(carnets fine for occasional tube use, and can't say I can remember the
last
time I used a bus). Loss of NR season tickets would mean something
approaching a 50% increase in my monthly commuting cost!

It may well be worth TfL offering a rail-only zonal season, but
whether they will or not is another matter. Similarly, it may be
worth their while offering a Cheap Day Return, but I suspect they'll
go for increased ODTC revenue instead.

No doubt they'll go for the ODTC option and substantially increase the price
of the fairly lightly-used off-peak rail services in Bexley and Bromley. If
this ever comes about and NR seasons are scrapped, it will even be cheaper
for me to get a rail-only season from outside the TfL zones (Dartford, 20
quid per month more) than to buy a Travelcard (50 quid a month more).

I don't understand why this is happening at all really. We already have a
zonal ticket - it's called a Travelcard. The argument about
"simplification" is just a ruse to introduce higher fares across the board
which are then channeled into TfL's central funding pool. I would be happy
to pay more for rail-only journies to pay for rail-specific enhancements (ie
getting my dilapitated station painted), but of course that is not an
option.

In the PTEs, where rail season tickets tend to be controlled by the
PTE rather than the train operator, there are several approaches -
Merseyside do not offer a rail-only season, while Greater Manchester
do. I don't know about the others. It does surprise me, and has for
a time, that despite TfL generally having more control over bus and
light rail services within its boundaries than the PTEs do, that it
has so little control over heavy rail.

I thought this was mainly because it wouldn't make sense to seperate out the
responsilbities for fragements of services either side of the fairly
arbitrary Greater London/TfL boundary, of which there are many.

Why do I get the feeling it would be so much better if London, paricularly
in terms of transport, was more properly managed as an integral part of a
much larger South East region, rather than being cut-out and divorced from
it.

Rich

--- Rich Mallard said...

If this ever comes about and NR seasons are scrapped,
it will even be cheaper for me to get a rail-only season from outside
the TfL zones (Dartford, 20 quid per month more) than to buy a
Travelcard (50 quid a month more).

I don't understand why this is happening at all really. We already
have a zonal ticket - it's called a Travelcard. The argument about
"simplification" is just a ruse to introduce higher fares across the
board which are then channeled into TfL's central funding pool. I
would be happy to pay more for rail-only journies to pay for
rail-specific enhancements (ie getting my dilapitated station
painted), but of course that is not an option.

I agree 100%. I've said it before, but zonal tickets are just a con to
make us pay extra for journeys that we could make (but won't) instead of
paying for the journeys which we do actually make.

Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many
people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing,
even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against
them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and
came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point
system.

--

"Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man
could invent." -- Arthur Conan Doyle

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:20:53 -0000, "Solar Penguin"
wrote:

I agree 100%. I've said it before, but zonal tickets are just a con to
make us pay extra for journeys that we could make (but won't) instead of
paying for the journeys which we do actually make.

I don't think the issue here is zonal tickets, it's modes, or in
particular whether one should need to pay for all modes even though
one only requires a rail single.

In a true joint-tariff system, the answer is yes, you should pay for
all modes, because they all come together to form a system.

As for the fares, yes, I do believe the ODTC price is *far* too
high[1], and the peak travelcard is sickeningly expensive. It's not
the principle that's the problem, it's the price.

[1] I believe that day travelcards for city areas should be priced at
just under twice the single fare for the "main" journey that results
in their purchase. You then get the fringe benefit of extra public
transport journeys that might otherwise have been made by car.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , Neil Williams
writes

As for the fares, yes, I do believe the ODTC price is *far* too
high[1], and the peak travelcard is sickeningly expensive. It's not
the principle that's the problem, it's the price.

[1] I believe that day travelcards for city areas should be priced at
just under twice the single fare for the "main" journey that results
in their purchase. You then get the fringe benefit of extra public
transport journeys that might otherwise have been made by car.

The off-peak ODTC that I normally get (zones 1-2) is 10p more than twice
the single fare. Pricing it at - say - 10p less wouldn't really make the
slightest difference to me. The incentive to not drive is the fact that
taking the car would be many times the cost of the ODTC.

The current peak-time differential *is* high enough to make me want to
travel off peak. For business purposes I only go into town occasionally,
and I deliberately schedule meetings to start at or after 10.30, so that
I can travel off-peak.

Bringing the cost of the peak-time ODTC closer to that of the off-peak
one would be a disincentive for me to travel off-peak (even for shopping
let alone business), which may not be a Good Thing for the commuting
public at large.

--
Paul Terry

Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Rich Mallard said...


If this ever comes about and NR seasons are scrapped,
it will even be cheaper for me to get a rail-only season from outside
the TfL zones (Dartford, 20 quid per month more) than to buy a
Travelcard (50 quid a month more).

I don't understand why this is happening at all really. We already
have a zonal ticket - it's called a Travelcard. The argument about
"simplification" is just a ruse to introduce higher fares across the
board which are then channeled into TfL's central funding pool. I
would be happy to pay more for rail-only journies to pay for
rail-specific enhancements (ie getting my dilapitated station
painted), but of course that is not an option.


I agree 100%. I've said it before, but zonal tickets are just a con to
make us pay extra for journeys that we could make (but won't) instead of
paying for the journeys which we do actually make.

Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many
people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing,
even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against
them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and
came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point
system.

I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take
into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that
central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy
when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work under
a point-to-point system?

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all (though this
appears to be the line taken by TfL - mustn't confuse the dumb travelling
public - let's just have simple and much higher fares overall).

Take Bexley NR station, Zone 6. Turn up off-peak and ask for day return
ticket to London. Clerk asks if you want tube and bus - if so you get a
travelcard, if not you get a nice cheap CDR. What's so complicated about
that?

What is a scandal though is all the people sold Travelcards by lazy ticket
clerks who should really be issuing CDRs, and people who don't know NR
season tickets exist to London terminals from around here (and are buying
much more expensive period Travelcards!) Sad, but true.

Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
...
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all

It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket
from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

tim wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents. Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3
annual) I do so off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.
Buying a newspaper at the newsagents can be a horrible though, waiting
behind all those bloody people buying zonal tickets!

2. AFAIK, the reason, AFAIK, that fares structure takes 7 volumes or
whatever and it takes an age to buy a ticket is that BR had made
thousands of special terminal in the 1970s and these are what are still
being used by counter staff today. The memory capacity of these is very
limited indeed.

A modern box (probably running Linux and with a cheap 80-120GB hard
drive) could easily cope with all of the data and spit out the cheapest
or quickest option in a fraction of a second. With a decent UI[*] that
is what the passenger accessible machines would have as well.

* that includes learning that none of Waterloo, Charing Cross and
Victoria start with an L.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Stephen Osborn wrote:

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc
you buy is individually priced

Not quite. The "pick and mix" has a fixed price for your choice of
the items included in the offer. And a zone fare system works a bit
like that.

"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...
tim wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you buy
is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

tim