"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take
into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that
central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy
when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

...

Plus, this idea that fares need to be "simple" is far too overplayed IMO.
So what if some cheaper fares are a little more complicated to undestand the
restrictions of?

For people who travel to London occasionally or tourists, I can see the need
for a fairly simple ticketing scheme, be it zonal or whatever, and our
existing Travelcard fits the bill nicely.

But for the vast majority of us, hardened London commuters who know our
routes very well indeed, we can surely be exposed to a little choice in our
ticketing range so we can opt to spend less and restrict our ticket
availability to match our modes of transport?

Nick

Nick wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take
into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that
central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy
when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

...


Plus, this idea that fares need to be "simple" is far too overplayed IMO.
So what if some cheaper fares are a little more complicated to undestand the
restrictions of?

For people who travel to London occasionally or tourists, I can see the need
for a fairly simple ticketing scheme, be it zonal or whatever, and our
existing Travelcard fits the bill nicely.

But for the vast majority of us, hardened London commuters who know our
routes very well indeed, we can surely be exposed to a little choice in our
ticketing range so we can opt to spend less and restrict our ticket
availability to match our modes of transport?

I understand that if you're a regular commuter then you want a little
choice in your ticketing range. However, I highly doubt that TfL are
going to abandon rail-only seasons - if they do, then you have my
support to protest extensively as the cheaper price of rail-only seasons
encourages people not to change to the Underground if it's not
necessary, avoiding extra overcrowding. I'm sure TfL are intelligent
enough to recognise that too.

We are talking about single/return fares. Now, any single fare that
involves through Tube-train travel will almost certainly be cheaper
under the TfL zonal mechanism than the current fare, as that extra £2 or
more for the Tube journey will be absorbed. The same probably applies
for CDR+Tube as it's an extra £4 that's being added for the Tube.

For rail-only journeys outside Zone 1, TfL fares will also probably be
cheaper - they're a maximum of £1.80 under Oyster for longer journeys or
£1.30 for shorter ones.

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be £2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

[snip useful and clear analysis]

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which
would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be
£2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of
a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would
be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get
free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what
proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.

However, as a YP railcard holder I can get a CDR from West Dulwich to
Victoria for around £2. Since railcards don't have any effect on zonal
fares, a comparable journey via bus 3 and Brixton will end up costing
over twice this. I wonder if they've thought about what will happen to
railcards if they go zonal?

(Incidentally, I'm all in favour of a fully integrated Verkehrsverbund
type fare structure, but it is definitely going to hit us tubeless
South Londoners the hardest...)

Rupert Candy wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

[snip useful and clear analysis]

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be £2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.

However, as a YP railcard holder I can get a CDR from West Dulwich to
Victoria for around £2. Since railcards don't have any effect on zonal
fares, a comparable journey via bus 3 and Brixton will end up costing
over twice this. I wonder if they've thought about what will happen to
railcards if they go zonal?

I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but
usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With
the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were
fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it
would be odd to abandon a discount again.

A possible solution in our case might be for TfL to combine their
Student discount scheme with the YP Railcard scheme, with
Student-registered Oysters incurring the YP discounts whereever
necessary. Complicated though!

Given that return fares between the termini and South London stations
would rise considerably, TfL may have to offer some compromise to
satisfy the travelling public.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but
usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With
the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were
fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it
would be odd to abandon a discount again.

A Zones 1-6 ODTC, normally GBP6.00, is discounted to GBP4.80 using a Gold
Card. Presumably this applies to a ticket bought for a travelling companion,
or for a ticket bought by the holder of a Gold Card which is not a
Travelcard, e.g. one valid for a journey outside London, such as Newhaven
Harbour to Town. Does this apply to other railcards - obviously a Network
Card would come up against the GBP10 minimum, except at weekends? Apparently
there is no discount on a ODTC with validity less than all zones.

Peter

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:32:58 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
wrote:

A Zones 1-6 ODTC, normally GBP6.00, is discounted to GBP4.80 using a Gold
Card.

Indeed it is - or a YP Railcard.

I've always found this strange, as none of the PTEs offer railcard
discount on their all-modes travelcard tickets, and I wouldn't have
thought that TfL got any money from the issue of a YP card. I do
wonder if it's just an easier way of enforcing "student/young person's
discount" because the card already exists, so it's one less scheme for
them to administer?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.