--- Dave Arquati said...


I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based

Distance based? Then how come a ticket from Morden to Waterloo (zones
1-4) costs the same as a ticket from Morden all the way to Mill Hill
East? Is it really fair that passengers only going as far as Waterloo
should pay for *twice* the distance they're actually travelling?

and keep people
happy when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

And how are people happy when "they can easily understand" that they're
being charged *twice* as much as they should be charged? That might
make you happy, but I'm not so easily pleased!

How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work
under a point-to-point system?

You say "flexible" like it's a good thing. But it isn't. It's just a
con to make you pay for routes you don't actually use.

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for
zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of
travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other
places that you won't actually visit today!


The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment,
and hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

I agree that the NR system could be streamlined. So let's concentrate
on streamlining it, instead of scrapping it and replacing it with
something worse.

For example, the development of GPS systems means that it's possible to
calculate the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between
stations, and use that as a basis for a point-to-point system. (This
way, we eliminate much of the complicated routing nonsense which makes
NR's present fares system so awkward. After all, from the customer's
POV it's only the start and end points that really matter, not the
places in between.)

Multiply that straight-line distance by a fixed pounds-per-mile rate,
and you get the base cost of the ticket. You can then add on various
fixed value premiums for premium services, e.g.

** travelling first class

** travelling by an express train instead of a stopping train

** even travelling by a train instead of a bus (assuming that this could
be the basis for tickets on all modes of transport)

Give the customers an itemised receipt along with their ticket, and they
can easily understand how the fare was worked out. And while we're at
it, let's get rid of pointless things like:

** different rates for adults and children. (After all, if you buy a
magazine or a can of drink, the shop won't charge you extra just because
you happen to be an adult. Why should adults buying train tickets be
penalised that way?)

** cheaper prices for tickets bought in advance. (If you buy a tin of
baked beans, the supermarket won't give you a discount if you leave the
tin on your shelf for a week with out opening it. The newsagent won't
reduce the price of a magazine if you keep it instead of reading it
right away. So why should tickets be cheaper if you don't use them
straight away?)

There we are. A nice, simple, streamlined, easy to follow system, based
entirely on the point-to-point system, and which cannot overcharge
people the way a zonal system does. That's the sort of thing the rail
companies should be aiming for. Not making things worse by forcing
zones on people.

--

"Napoleon was born on may 4th 1852 at Westminster so you are the one
asking all the luck going, if I were going to become a Vampire."
-- MegaHal

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for
zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of
travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other
places that you won't actually visit today!

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay) to
buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the 3 or 4
buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it. There is no
obligation on you to buy a Travelcard if you don't want to.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay)
to buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the
3 or 4 buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it.

Or even take a Number 3 bus all the way from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. The only trouble with these methods is that you end up having
to travel on a bus. Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.
Worse, it means you're on a double-decker bus, which means annoyingly
low headroom. (Well, unless you get the single decker 322 from Crystal
Palce to Brixton, but that goes via a very long way round and takes
forever, so even the double deckers are preferable to it.)

(And besides, it's all academic because I don't have Pre-pay anyway. It
isn't valid on my local NR services and I don't travel by bus enough to
bother with it.)


--

"Through the pigeonhole flew a carrier pigeon. There was something
attached to its leg. It was a postman."
-- Spike Milligan.

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay)
to buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the
3 or 4 buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it.

Or even take a Number 3 bus all the way from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. The only trouble with these methods is that you end up having
to travel on a bus. Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.

But infinitely preferable to the Tube!

Worse, it means you're on a double-decker bus, which means annoyingly
low headroom. (Well, unless you get the single decker 322 from Crystal
Palce to Brixton, but that goes via a very long way round and takes
forever, so even the double deckers are preferable to it.)

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs, no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

(And besides, it's all academic because I don't have Pre-pay anyway. It
isn't valid on my local NR services and I don't travel by bus enough to
bother with it.)

Well, that is fair enough!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.

But infinitely preferable to the Tube!

And yet you'd take the Tube all the way from Brixton, instead of just a
couple of stops from Victoria to Oxford Circus. :-)

Ok... Just to prevent this thread turning into a dull debate on the
subjective merits of Tube vs. single deckers vs. double deckers, I'll
withdraw my original statement and replace it with:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to
Oxford Circus *by* *train* *and* *tube*. Why can't you simply
buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace to Oxford Circus?
Instead you have to buy a One Day Travelcard for zones 1-4,
which means you're also paying for the flexibility of travelling to
Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other places that
you won't actually visit today!

How's that...?

--

"Sexaphones are bad." -- Yads

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.

But infinitely preferable to the Tube!

And yet you'd take the Tube all the way from Brixton, instead of just a
couple of stops from Victoria to Oxford Circus. :-)

No I wouldn't - I suggested you might want to!

Ok... Just to prevent this thread turning into a dull debate on the
subjective merits of Tube vs. single deckers vs. double deckers, I'll
withdraw my original statement and replace it with:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to
Oxford Circus *by* *train* *and* *tube*. Why can't you simply
buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace to Oxford Circus?
Instead you have to buy a One Day Travelcard for zones 1-4,
which means you're also paying for the flexibility of travelling to
Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other places that
you won't actually visit today!

How's that...?

Still untrue. You can buy a Network Rail ticket & a Tube ticket
separately, there's no law requiring you to buy a Travelcard! Of
course, the former would cost you a minimum of £7.10 return, while the
Travelcard would cost you £5.20 and you would have the option of
deciding to go somewhere else that evening and not have to pay more for
your transport, but hey, it's a free country!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Still untrue. You can buy a Network Rail ticket & a Tube ticket
separately, there's no law requiring you to buy a Travelcard! Of
course, the former would cost you a minimum of £7.10 return, while the
Travelcard would cost you £5.20

Good point. But we're still charged £1.90 *less* for the chance to make
*more* journeys. Or, alternatively, charged £1.90 more for the chance
to make fewer journeys. Whichever way you look at it, it goes against
common sense. Doesn't that indicate that there's something very wrong
at the heart of the system..? Why shouldn't we be able to save money by
not buying those journeys that we don't make?

--

"We can't stand around here doing nothing. People will think we're
workmen!" -- Spike Milligan

Mrs Redboots wrote:

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs,
no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

Annabel - it must have been a while since you've been on the 3 for you
to describe a long journey on it as "a joy"... (On the other hand, IMHO
the 137 is a very pleasant way to travel from this corner of London to
Oxford St!)

Rupert Candy wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Mrs Redboots wrote:

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs,
no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

Annabel - it must have been a while since you've been on the 3 for you
to describe a long journey on it as "a joy"... (On the other hand, IMHO
the 137 is a very pleasant way to travel from this corner of London to
Oxford St!)

Yes, I don't like the 3 very much, you are quite right. On the other
hand, it does go through some nice parts of London before crossing the
river!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:04:09 +0000, Mrs Redboots
wrote:

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay) to
buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the 3 or 4
buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it. There is no
obligation on you to buy a Travelcard if you don't want to.

And that, as I see it, is a serious fault with the way TfL, and much
of the rest of the UK's public transport, is operated.

A proper connectional public transport system (yes, one of those
things you don't see a lot of in the UK, not even in London) is made
up of a number of interlinked modes, and any one journey may use any
or all of those modes depending on the quickest or most practical
route from point A to point B.

As such, the fare from point A to point B (or over however many zones
- whether the system is zonal or not is irrelevant to the argument)
should be the same, for the use of any or all of those modes.

To do anything different, as the UK tends to, is to artificially
direct people into making long "trunk" journeys by bus rather than
bus+rail+bus, for example, which results in many miles of wasteful bus
routes that don't need to be there at all, and even worse to (often
commercial) bus routes competing against (often subsidised) rail
within a city transport system, which is nothing short of downright
scandalous, and an utter waste of money.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.