I'm thinking about both LU and NR in what follows, but mainly NR
(afaik LU only check tickets at the entry/exit points of the system).

When undergoing a ticket check inside the transport system (on the
train or at an interchange), is it enough to have a pre-pay Oyster
card which has been validated at an entry point and is within the
2-hour time limit? Or can you still be PF'd if you're not on a
"reasonable" route? Does the Routeing Guide apply?

This has implications as to whether you can change your mind about
your destination while en route, or start your journey while undecided
as to your destination - which many see as one of the advantages of
Oyster.
The question may become more important as pre-pay is rolled out across
more of NR in London. But at the moment I can't find anything on the
Oyster website about it.

A specific example from the present: Suppose I touch in at Kenton,
take the Bakerloo 1 stop to Harrow & Wealdstone, then get on a
Silverlink County non-stopper to Euston. This looks like it would save
5-10 mins compared to getting an all-stations train from Kenton to
Euston, and therefore might be considered a reasonable route, though
it's not allowed by the NR Routeing Guide. If I encountered a gripper
on the Silverlink train, could I get PF'd? IOW, would I be required to
touch out then in again at H&W if I wanted to use this route? And if
this route is not allowed, would I be "allowed" to use the same route
in the opposite direction, since (I think) the RG doesn't apply to LU?

I'm thinking about both LU and NR in what follows, but mainly NR
(afaik LU only check tickets at the entry/exit points of the system).

Well they have the "random" ticket inspections of course, but basically that
sounds right.

When undergoing a ticket check inside the transport system (on the
train or at an interchange), is it enough to have a pre-pay Oyster
card which has been validated at an entry point and is within the
2-hour time limit? Or can you still be PF'd if you're not on a
"reasonable" route? Does the Routeing Guide apply?

Interesting one. At the moment it seems that the NR routes that Pre-Pay is
valid on are very specific so there shouldn't be an issue with a route being
unreasonable. On the tube I guess there can be considered to be
unreasonable routes on Pre-Pay. If for example you touch-in in zone 1 and
are found to in zone 4 heading towards zone 3 without having touched-out in
zone 4 in between it is going to look dodgy though you could of course have
just missed your stop and be intending to touch out in a zone 4 station.

This has implications as to whether you can change your mind about
your destination while en route, or start your journey while undecided
as to your destination - which many see as one of the advantages of
Oyster.
The question may become more important as pre-pay is rolled out across
more of NR in London. But at the moment I can't find anything on the
Oyster website about it.

Presumably if Pre-Pay is rolled out across more of London it will be on a
zonal basis so the route will become less critical.

A specific example from the present: Suppose I touch in at Kenton,
take the Bakerloo 1 stop to Harrow & Wealdstone, then get on a
Silverlink County non-stopper to Euston. This looks like it would save
5-10 mins compared to getting an all-stations train from Kenton to
Euston, and therefore might be considered a reasonable route, though
it's not allowed by the NR Routeing Guide. If I encountered a gripper
on the Silverlink train, could I get PF'd? IOW, would I be required to
touch out then in again at H&W if I wanted to use this route? And if
this route is not allowed, would I be "allowed" to use the same route
in the opposite direction, since (I think) the RG doesn't apply to LU?

The Oystercard website doesn't really make it clear, but I've always assumed
that you are expected to revalidate when switching between tube and NR, or
vice-versa. So you should touch-on at Harrow & Wealdstone.

I've also never really been clear about how smart the validators are. To
switch the scenario to stations I am familiar with, if one switches between
tube and Thameslink at Farringdon, is one expected to touch-out on the tube
platform and in on the NR one (or vice-versa) or is just one validation on
either sufficient for the system to sort it all out. Similarly if switching
between tube and Tramlink at Wimbledon, is validating on the Tramlink
platform sufficient for the system to register a touch-out from the tube
system?

I do find the 'Pre-Pay users touch-in here' type notices hopelessly
insufficient in many cases. Why not have a notice clarifying exactly who is
expected to touch-in?

Graham J wrote:

I've also never really been clear about how smart the validators are.
To
switch the scenario to stations I am familiar with, if one switches
between
tube and Thameslink at Farringdon, is one expected to touch-out on
the tube
platform and in on the NR one (or vice-versa) or is just one
validation on
either sufficient for the system to sort it all out. Similarly if
switching
between tube and Tramlink at Wimbledon, is validating on the Tramlink
platform sufficient for the system to register a touch-out from the
tube
system?

I do find the 'Pre-Pay users touch-in here' type notices hopelessly
insufficient in many cases. Why not have a notice clarifying exactly
who is
expected to touch-in?

I'd also like to know the answer to this as I think it's hopelessly
unclear (as illustrated in the recent thread about Tramlink at
Wimbledon!) One interesting aspect that I've considered - at City
Thameslink and Blackfriars there are now frequent 'swoops' by
Thameslink ticket inspectors in the morning peak. These guys don't have
handheld Oyster readers - instead they use the Prepay validators to
check people with seasons on Oyster. Of course, as long as you have
prepay balance, an Oyster will *always* be accepted by these validators
(as it assumes you're entering the system, not leaving it). So far it
doesn't seem to have led to any unresolved journeys, but it doesn't
seem to be the 'right' way to check Oyster tickets. Perhaps Thameslink
staff need some training...

I'd also like to know the answer to this as I think it's hopelessly
unclear (as illustrated in the recent thread about Tramlink at
Wimbledon!) One interesting aspect that I've considered - at City
Thameslink and Blackfriars there are now frequent 'swoops' by
Thameslink ticket inspectors in the morning peak. These guys don't have
handheld Oyster readers - instead they use the Prepay validators to
check people with seasons on Oyster. Of course, as long as you have
prepay balance, an Oyster will *always* be accepted by these validators
(as it assumes you're entering the system, not leaving it). So far it
doesn't seem to have led to any unresolved journeys, but it doesn't
seem to be the 'right' way to check Oyster tickets. Perhaps Thameslink
staff need some training...

I suppose it does a job in that it makes no difference to anyone with valid
travelcards and those entering the station and with sufficient Pre-Pay, and
for those leaving the station the validators would actually say whether they
have registered an entry or an exit on Pre-Pay. At least I assume they do -
the ones on the tube at Wimbledon and Fulham Broadway do. So if they see
one display a message for entering the system they know the passenger had
never touched before the journey. Mind you after being nailed for a penalty
fare or worse the passenger would be left with an Oystercard that presumably
will have a potential unresolved journey on it. Tough titty really but not
the most elegant solution.

Graham J wrote:

I suppose it does a job in that it makes no difference to anyone with
valid
travelcards and those entering the station and with sufficient
Pre-Pay, and
for those leaving the station the validators would actually say
whether they
have registered an entry or an exit on Pre-Pay. At least I assume
they do -
the ones on the tube at Wimbledon and Fulham Broadway do. So if they
see
one display a message for entering the system they know the passenger
had
never touched before the journey. Mind you after being nailed for a
penalty
fare or worse the passenger would be left with an Oystercard that
presumably
will have a potential unresolved journey on it. Tough titty really
but not
the most elegant solution.

The problem is that many passengers arriving at City Thameslink with
travelcards on Oyster won't have touched in (there is nowhere to touch
in at most South London stations). This means that the screen on the
validator displays "Enter" when I put my ticket on it (i.e. it presumes
that I'm starting, rather than finishing, my journey at City
Thameslink). The way the system is set up at the moment, this doesn't
matter, since travelcard season holders don't have to touch in and out
on National Rail, but (as you say) it's not a very elegant solution,
and not the correct way to do it - that's what the hand held readers
are for.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:28:09 GMT, "Graham J"
wrote:

I've also never really been clear about how smart the validators are. To
switch the scenario to stations I am familiar with, if one switches between
tube and Thameslink at Farringdon, is one expected to touch-out on the tube
platform and in on the NR one (or vice-versa) or is just one validation on
either sufficient for the system to sort it all out. Similarly if switching
between tube and Tramlink at Wimbledon, is validating on the Tramlink
platform sufficient for the system to register a touch-out from the tube
system?

Thameslink have notices up specifying in which area you can use
Oysters. Roughly speaking it is at stations between West Hampstead and
Elephant and Castle. Probably London Bridge as well, BICBW.

Their website appears to be silent on the subject.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

"Terry Harper" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:28:09 GMT, "Graham J"
wrote:

I've also never really been clear about how smart the validators are. To
switch the scenario to stations I am familiar with, if one switches
between
tube and Thameslink at Farringdon, is one expected to touch-out on the
tube
platform and in on the NR one (or vice-versa) or is just one validation on
either sufficient for the system to sort it all out. Similarly if
switching
between tube and Tramlink at Wimbledon, is validating on the Tramlink
platform sufficient for the system to register a touch-out from the tube
system?

Thameslink have notices up specifying in which area you can use
Oysters. Roughly speaking it is at stations between West Hampstead and
Elephant and Castle. Probably London Bridge as well, BICBW.

Their website appears to be silent on the subject.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

I believe there are historical agreements where NR Operators have to accept
an LUL ticket in exchange for an agreed share of revenue.
'Interoperable routes' going back to the days the lines were actually built.

Although these routes are irrelevant to Zonal Travelcards (which are valid
on all NR & LUL services in Greater London), and LUL do not issue single /
return tickets between specific named NR stations, I believe they do have
the right to as long as they can ensure that correct revenue goes to the
operator as per the old agreement.

At a guess, a Pre-Pay Oyster card 'ticket' does record the stations
travelled between, so LUL can now prove that a journey on an interoperable
route has been made, and can pay the operator accordingly (something that
can't be done with Zone based paper single / return tickets issued by LUL).
Someone at LUL must have been on the ball to pick up on this!

Anyway, the routes are as follows (standard class only!):

Amersham - Marylebone
Euston - Watford Junction
Fenchurch Street - Upminster
Finsbury Park - Moorgate
Gunnersbury - Richmond
Stratford - Liverpool Street
Stratford - West Ham
Kentish Town - Elephant & Castle / London Bridge / Moorgate

Colin

I've also never really been clear about how smart the validators are. To
switch the scenario to stations I am familiar with, if one switches
between
tube and Thameslink at Farringdon, is one expected to touch-out on the
tube
platform and in on the NR one (or vice-versa) or is just one validation
on
either sufficient for the system to sort it all out. Similarly if
switching
between tube and Tramlink at Wimbledon, is validating on the Tramlink
platform sufficient for the system to register a touch-out from the tube
system?

Thameslink have notices up specifying in which area you can use
Oysters. Roughly speaking it is at stations between West Hampstead and
Elephant and Castle. Probably London Bridge as well, BICBW.

Yes, the question was not whether Oyster Pre-Pay could be used, but how it
is supposed to be used. There are validators on the Thameslink platforms
and at least one end of the tube platforms. If transferring between
Thameslink and tube using a Pre-Pay Oyster is one supposed to use the
validator on both Thameslink and tube platforms, or will just one or the
other suffice?

On Tue, 03 May 2005 11:05:19 GMT, "Graham J"
wrote:

Thameslink have notices up specifying in which area you can use
Oysters. Roughly speaking it is at stations between West Hampstead and
Elephant and Castle. Probably London Bridge as well, BICBW.

Yes, the question was not whether Oyster Pre-Pay could be used, but how it
is supposed to be used. There are validators on the Thameslink platforms
and at least one end of the tube platforms. If transferring between
Thameslink and tube using a Pre-Pay Oyster is one supposed to use the
validator on both Thameslink and tube platforms, or will just one or the
other suffice?

You only need to touch in or out of the system when you enter or leave
it. Transferring between lines does not need a touch in/out. If you
are continuing past the limits of the system, then you need to touch
out on joining Thameslink.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

You only need to touch in or out of the system when you enter or leave
it. Transferring between lines does not need a touch in/out. If you
are continuing past the limits of the system, then you need to touch
out on joining Thameslink.

Hmm, I think I was having a bit of a brain fart there. I was forgetting
that if National Rail has Pre-Pay it is part of the zonal fares system and
so indeed the equivalent of just changing tube line.

G.