On 14 May 2005 16:07:02 -0700, wrote:

What about the backlit (LCD?) type displays that are in use in other
parts of Europe? These give really superior contrast to either the
front-lit flipdot type or LEDs (which, IMO, always look too dark.)
Albeit with a slight drop of contrast when viewed at extreme angles.

They do work, but suffer from very slow refresh rates, are more
expensive to maintain and less robust. They are used on some trains
(e.g. Networker Turbos), but seem to be a mid-late 90s fad and are
rare in new railway equipment these days.

And, as for roller-blind displays, they are completely unreadable
when they get dirty. Changing them all to a funny yellow colour in
the mid-90s didn't help. (Wasn't that about the time that the rest of
the continent started digitizing its displays?)

And many local bus companies in the UK. New Stagecoach buses have
been flipdot since the mid 1990s. That said, flipdot is a poor
technology, IMO - too many moving parts, and capable of wrong-side
failure (i.e. stuck showing wrong information). LED is far superior
in both these respects.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sat, 14 May 2005 15:04:42 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

This was certainly the case in Leeds a few years ago (they may have
changed it since). The buses run by First had a dot matrix display up
front (I think it was reflective/mechanical, rather than LEDs), but
rather than remain static with the number/destination, they changed to
show the conceit of which "line" (i.e. basic route, but with obvious
variations) it was, as well. It was not unusual to have the wait
almost until the last minute to work out exactly what number an
approaching bus actually was.

Poor design, then. The best approach, AFAIAC, is to have two rows of
text with a double-height number, the terminus in bold on the top line
and a via point (possibly scrolling or changing) below. If the via
point is redundant (e.g. an express service) double-height text could
be used.

The side/rear blinds should show at minimum number and destination. I
find the London style of showing only a via point on the side blind
quite annoying.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Mrs Redboots typed


Chris! wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs


Indeed, and although I'm still quite capable of climbing the stairs, I
don't always want to!

I am *just* able to climb the stairs. I sometimes _have_ to.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Neil Williams writes:
... New Stagecoach buses have
been flipdot since the mid 1990s. That said, flipdot is a poor
technology, IMO - too many moving parts, and capable of wrong-side
failure (i.e. stuck showing wrong information). LED is far superior
in both these respects.

Agreed -- and on top of all that, the dots are just too large, so it's
often necessary to cycle between 2, 3, or 4 displays to show all the
text they need to.

Here in Toronto, most of the TTC bus fleet now has flip-dots, which
generally replaced roller blinds in the 1980s; I sympathize with
the desire to cut costs, but I've always found the result highly
unsatisfactory. New buses in the last few years have LEDs, and
these are way better.

I saw a surprising failure mode the other day, by the way, on a bus
on the 320 Yonge night route. Its flip-dot front sign was showing the
correct route; I forget the exact wording, but it might have been
cycling between "ROUTE 320", "YONGE BLUE NIGHT", and "TO STEELES".
But the side sign on the same bus, which is controlled from the same
panel, was showing 32 Eglinton West. And it wasn't a case of the
flip-dots being frozen, either -- it was cycling between "32 EGLINTON
WEST" and "TO EGLINTON STN"!

Our subway [underground] and streetcar systems do still have roller
blinds, as their routes are a lot more stable; so did our trolleybuses
until they were withdrawn. The Scarborough RT, a light railway with
only one route, has no destination signs on the vehicles at all.
--
Mark Brader "'You wanted it to WORK? That costs EXTRA!'
Toronto is probably the second-place security hole
after simple carelessness." -- John Woods

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Neil Williams writes:
I've also seen Belgian buses at termini with a very clever variation
on the theme - all blinds show a countdown to departure in minutes.
Very useful.

Ah, Belgium. That reminds me of another advantage of roller blinds,
which they take advantage of in Brussels:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/...000/7016-2.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/...000/BRUSS1.jpg
http://www.xdinet.demon.co.uk/rail/pics3/BR7759.jpg
http://www.xdinet.demon.co.uk/rail/pics3/BR7796.jpg

Note the use of colour, enabling the route to be picked out more quickly.
The routes are shown on the system map using the same colours. Sadly,
their newest vehicles have monochromatic digital displays (LCD, I think).

In Toronto, the roller blinds used to look like this:

http://www.transittoronto.org/images/bus-8704-31.jpg
http://www.transittoronto.org/images/bus-8000-86.jpg

These would be 1960s or 1970s pictures. The yellow block with the route
number was easily spotted; the red block showed the route's two endpoints.
(However, in the last years before the change from blinds to flip-dots,
costs were reduced by changing to plain white-on-black.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Men! Give them enough rope and they'll dig
| their own grave." -- EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away from the
stop before yours! And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus journey
downstairs). And, as you so rightly say, not everybody is able to climb
the stairs, particularly when the bus is moving.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Mrs Redboots typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away from the
stop before yours!

I think staying downstairs for a short hop is fine. Clogging the lobby
or sitting on 'Priority Seats' when fit and spry, for miles and miles is
not.

And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus journey
downstairs).

You aren't one of the yoofertoday, who seem to be the worst offenders.


And, as you so rightly say, not everybody is able to climb
the stairs, particularly when the bus is moving.

True the point is that those that can, often don't.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Neil Williams wrote:
On 14 May 2005 16:07:02 -0700, wrote:

What about the backlit (LCD?) type displays that are in use in other
parts of Europe? These give really superior contrast to either the
front-lit flipdot type or LEDs (which, IMO, always look too dark.)
Albeit with a slight drop of contrast when viewed at extreme angles.

They do work, but suffer from very slow refresh rates, are more
expensive to maintain and less robust. They are used on some trains
(e.g. Networker Turbos), but seem to be a mid-late 90s fad and are
rare in new railway equipment these days.

Actually Network SouthEast went through a real fad for this type of
displays in the 90s - as well as the Networker generation of trains
already mentioned, the Class 321 and 456 got them, and there were
several 'static' installations - examples I can remember include above
the ticket windows at Liverpool St and Cambridge (both of which became
illegible very quickly), above the platform entrances at Liverpool St
(in varying states of legibility but all still there) and on some
platform indicators (Barking seems to ring a bell). On Networkers they
were replaced with LCD displays, and on Class 456s they were replaced
with old-fashioned blinds (still in use)!

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
Mrs Redboots typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May
2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front
window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see
out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to
get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are
unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go
upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and
the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile
going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and
come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to
get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away
from the
stop before yours!

I think staying downstairs for a short hop is fine. Clogging the
lobby
or sitting on 'Priority Seats' when fit and spry, for miles and miles
is
not.

And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming
back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus
journey
downstairs).

You aren't one of the yoofertoday, who seem to be the worst
offenders.

In my experience everyone is as bad as each other at clogging up the
downstairs bit. If you try and get a bus from outside a suburban train
station at about 6pm the whole downstairs section is clogged up with
suites whilst the upstairs is empty