On Fri, 20 May 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:

On 20 May 2005 01:34:22 -0700, lonelytraveller wrote:

One of the things I find strange about the tube is that they hardly
ever (i.e. everywhere except holborn) seem to attempt to correct the
lack of interchange between lines which cross each other

That's hardly fair. In the case of the last two lines built, Jubilee and
Victoria, it seems like a case of joining up the dots.

That's true, but Dr No Context is talking about improving connectivity
between existing lines, and he's right about that. The answer, of course,
is that the cost of the improvements would sadly be disproportionate to
the benefit they would bring. Except at Park Royal, apparently. The
ELL/Central opportunity at Shoreditch High Street is an example of this -
it was considered, and not found to be worth it, given that the extra stop
would delay travellers from the east as well.

I'd take issue with some of the suggestions, though, like Aldgate; the
current layout is like this:

---+-\
| \ # AE
A #| +---
| /
---+-/

Where lines are, er, lines, pluses are junctions, and # is a station; A is
Aldgate, AE is Aldgate East. Lonelytraveller doesn't like the A to AE
change, so he'd rather have:

---+-\
# | \
A #| +---
# | /
---+-/

Or something, so you can do it all at Aldgate. This, however, would be
awful for anyone who just wanted to head east - you'd have to choose
between two platforms and hope you picked the one with the first train,
whereas at present, you just have one. I'm not really sure who it would
make life easier for; the stations on either side provide easier changes
from the District and H&C to the Circle.

I don't think there's any way to arrange this so that everyone is happy.
Not just by building new platforms, at least; i did at one point work out
how to arrange a station at the junction of three lines so that there's
one platform per destination direction, but it was a bit complicated.

What i'd do, if we were going to dig up bits of the City, is rearrange
Tower Hill - possibly with an extra bit of track from Minories junction -
so that Metropolitan trains could terminate there instead of Aldgate. Oh,
and link the station up with Fenchurch Street and Tower Gateway properly
while i'm down there.

Many of the other suggestions are sound, though. I share his frustration
over Earl's Court - it (or the WLL, depending on how you look at it) is
just in the wrong place for interchange with the WLL (and concomitant
extermination of the Kenny O stub, which i find really irritating).

tom

--
20 Minutes into the Future

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:

On 20 May 2005 01:34:22 -0700, lonelytraveller wrote:

One of the things I find strange about the tube is that they hardly
ever (i.e. everywhere except holborn) seem to attempt to correct the
lack of interchange between lines which cross each other

(snip)

Many of the other suggestions are sound, though. I share his frustration
over Earl's Court - it (or the WLL, depending on how you look at it) is
just in the wrong place for interchange with the WLL (and concomitant
extermination of the Kenny O stub, which i find really irritating).

Earl's Court is in exactly the right place - between Earl's Court Road
and Warwick Road, with the former exit serving the busy shopping area
and the latter exit serving the exhibition centre. There's no better
location of Earl's Court station.

To provide a comprehensive interchange to the WLL without greatly
inconveniencing the people who travel to the Earl's Court area would
require new platforms underneath the exhibition centre, with a
passageway linking them to the existing station. But these platforms
would be tens of metres away from West Brompton! So, why not just
signpost and allow out-of-station interchange between Earl's Court and
West Brompton? It would have much the same effect.

You may find the Olympia stub irritating, but many others find it useful
- it has good interchange at Earl's Court across the platform to
services towards Victoria or Edgware Road, and is relatively reliable
compared to the WLL.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Fri, 20 May 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:

On 20 May 2005 01:34:22 -0700, lonelytraveller wrote:

the lack of interchange between lines which cross each other

I share his frustration over Earl's Court - it (or the WLL, depending
on how you look at it) is just in the wrong place for interchange with
the WLL (and concomitant extermination of the Kenny O stub, which i
find really irritating).

Earl's Court is in exactly the right place - between Earl's Court Road
and Warwick Road, with the former exit serving the busy shopping area
and the latter exit serving the exhibition centre. There's no better
location of Earl's Court station.

That is one conclusion. The other is that the shops and the exhibition
centre are in the wrong place.

That isn't an entirely facetious comment - the location of the station
probably had a lot to do with the structure of development in the area.

It is a mostly facetious comment, though.

To provide a comprehensive interchange to the WLL without greatly
inconveniencing the people who travel to the Earl's Court area would require
new platforms underneath the exhibition centre, with a passageway linking
them to the existing station. But these platforms would be tens of metres
away from West Brompton! So, why not just signpost and allow out-of-station
interchange between Earl's Court and West Brompton? It would have much the
same effect.

I think that's a great idea. I'm not suggesting a new WLL station on the
existing line; that would clearly be madness. I'm just a little irked that
they didn't build the stuff in that area a bit more smoothly when they had
the chance (with the WLL further to the east, for example). I'm not too
hot on my history, though; the WLL probably predates the District line.
Still, if Earl's Court is a good place for a tube station, it's also a
good place for a railway station.

That said, perhaps the fact that the Wimbledon branch follows the WLL
alignment means Earl's Court has to be well to the east of it.

You may find the Olympia stub irritating, but many others find it useful

DESTROY KENSINGTON OLYMPIA.

tom

--
Sometimes it takes a madman like Iggy Pop before you can SEE the logic really working.

In message , Tom
Anderson writes

That is one conclusion. The other is that the shops and the exhibition
centre are in the wrong place.

That isn't an entirely facetious comment - the location of the station
probably had a lot to do with the structure of development in the area.

When the line was built through Earls Court in 1869, no station was
thought necessary as the area was still mostly market gardens.

Housing rapidly followed the railway and, after petitioning by residents
a small wooden station was built to the EAST of Earl's Court Road in
1871 (where lonelytraveller suggests it should be now).

This burned down in 1875 and was replaced by the present station, a
larger site being deemed necessary as the area was rapidly becoming
built-up. What is now the Earl's Court Exhibition Centre was just waste
ground (but used for various shows) on the triangle created by the
railway lines to the west of the new station - the exhibition hall was
not completed until 1937.

So the area actually developed around the railway, rather than
vice-versa.

--
Paul Terry

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
I'm just a little irked that they didn't build the stuff in that area a
bit more smoothly when they had the chance (with the WLL further to the
east, for example). I'm not too hot on my history, though; the WLL
probably predates the District line.

It does: the original District Line came west from Gloucester Road and
HSK (converging routes) then diverged to meet the WLL facing both north
and south.

Initially there was no station on the middle section. Earl's Court was
built later, and was initially on the *east* side of the road; it got
moved west later.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Kensington olympia must be the most random station in the world

lonelytraveller wrote:
Kensington olympia must be the most random station in the world

Really? It's therefore an amazing coincidence that this randomly
located station actually found itself not only in Kensington but also
right next door to Olympia. I always thought that was deliberate, but
according to you it was just chance.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:

Really? It's therefore an amazing coincidence that this randomly
located station actually found itself not only in Kensington but also
right next door to Olympia. I always thought that was deliberate, but
according to you it was just chance.

Erm isn't the tube station actually in Hammersmith & Fulham? (The through
line is the bondary.)

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Richard J. wrote:

Really? It's therefore an amazing coincidence that this randomly
located station actually found itself not only in Kensington but
also right next door to Olympia. I always thought that was
deliberate, but according to you it was just chance.

Erm isn't the tube station actually in Hammersmith & Fulham? (The
through line is the bondary.)

I think you're right. Not such an amazing coincidence after all.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Many of the other suggestions are sound, though. I share his frustration
over Earl's Court

Me too - it's really inconvenient that there's no proper interchange
between the WLL and the Picc.

- it (or the WLL, depending on how you look at it) is
just in the wrong place for interchange with the WLL (and concomitant
extermination of the Kenny O stub, which i find really irritating).

You may find the Olympia stub irritating, but many others find it useful
- it has good interchange at Earl's Court across the platform to
services towards Victoria or Edgware Road, and is relatively reliable
compared to the WLL.

What I'd really like to see done with the Olympia branch, is
restoration of the through services from Earl's Court to Willesden
Junction. (OK so it's totally unrealistic. But maybe one day the WLL
will be quadrupled or something - it is supposed to have major
capacity problems after all - and it'll become possible