In article , (David
Splett) wrote:

I'm not sure things are quite that simple, sadly.

With SWT, AIUI the trains were purposely designed with this feature.
Furthermore, they are worked by guards.

WAGN suffer from a number of factors:-
- None of their trains, AIUI, were designed with selective operation
of doors, and to fit such equipment would be very expensive and
difficult. It would also probably be quite unreliable being retrofitted
to existing trains. Then there is the issue that all of WAGN's trains
are operated only by a driver.

I take you point about lack of SDO equipment but DOO should be no bar to
SDO operation.

- Only a small number of their platforms can take more than 8
carriages (Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, St. Neots, Huntington,
Peterborough, Cambridge plus perhaps one or two others - all with quite
a bit of inconvenience). This makes regular operation of 12-carriage
trains very hard.
- Certain platforms can only take 4-carriage trains - Meldreth,
Shepreth & Foxton, plus stations north of Cambridge except Ely.

Actually, _stations_ North of Ely can take longer trains (e.g. Downham
Market) but the power supply doesn't support trains longer than 4 cars.

Similarly, some stations can only take 6-carriage trains - for example
Welham Green.
- 12-carriage trains would have to use only Platforms 1 to 8 at King's
Cross, which at peak times are already full to capacity with GNER
trains, et cetera.

You can't have used King's Cross much at rush hours recently. Lots of
Cambridge and Peterborough trains leave from platforms 1-8.

It is possible to attach and detach en-route (as happens with certain
peak-hour departures to Cambridge and Kings Lynn), however this causes
big problems if one part gets delayed for any reason, or if a driver
isn't on hand at exactly the right time. Also, coupling is quite
troublesome - I used to travel up to London on a train which coupled at
Royston, which was often late because of this operation.

The class 365 units seem to be a right bugger to couple up. The Royston
coupling is now performed at Cambridge AIUI, to make assistance more
available if there are problems. I can see why Southern insisted on
changing all their Electrostar couplers.

Hope this is of interest.

HAND,

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
- Only a small number of their platforms can take more than 8
carriages (Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, St. Neots, Huntington,
Peterborough, Cambridge plus perhaps one or two others - all with quite
a bit of inconvenience). This makes regular operation of 12-carriage
trains very hard.
- Certain platforms can only take 4-carriage trains - Meldreth,
Shepreth & Foxton, plus stations north of Cambridge except Ely.
Actually, _stations_ North of Ely can take longer trains (e.g. Downham
Market) but the power supply doesn't support trains longer than 4 cars.

Um. I can't remember what the power restrictions are, but I would have
thought it's more to do with the number of trains in a section rather than
their length - though granted the two are often related. Possibly Downham
can take more than 4 (though I could have sworn that when I stood at the
4-car mark last year with my bike I was at the end of the platform), but I'm
sure Littleport and Watlington can't.


Similarly, some stations can only take 6-carriage trains - for example
Welham Green.
- 12-carriage trains would have to use only Platforms 1 to 8 at King's
Cross, which at peak times are already full to capacity with GNER
trains, et cetera.
You can't have used King's Cross much at rush hours recently. Lots of
Cambridge and Peterborough trains leave from platforms 1-8.

Quite so, but if you suddenly extend all of these to 12 cars they can't use
platforms 9-11 (or can't use a platform already occupied by one unit). This
is fine until an incident causes the platforming to go out of sequence:
currently WAGN only runs one 12-carriage service; similarly the Eurostars
can only use platforms 1 or 6 - okay for a handful of services, but start
making more of them and you have problems.


The class 365 units seem to be a right bugger to couple up. The Royston
coupling is now performed at Cambridge AIUI, to make assistance more
available if there are problems. I can see why Southern insisted on
changing all their Electrostar couplers.

Yep, though they did of course used to join and split on the Ramsgate/Dover
runs, seemingly with little hassle. I've seen 317s have trouble, but 365s do
seem to suffer from the problem very badly.

In article , (David
Splett) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
- Only a small number of their platforms can take more than 8
carriages (Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, St. Neots, Huntington,
Peterborough, Cambridge plus perhaps one or two others - all with
quite a bit of inconvenience). This makes regular operation of
12-carriage trains very hard.
- Certain platforms can only take 4-carriage trains - Meldreth,
Shepreth & Foxton, plus stations north of Cambridge except Ely.
Actually, _stations_ North of Ely can take longer trains (e.g. Downham
Market) but the power supply doesn't support trains longer than 4
cars.

Um. I can't remember what the power restrictions are, but I would have
thought it's more to do with the number of trains in a section rather
than their length - though granted the two are often related. Possibly
Downham can take more than 4 (though I could have sworn that when I
stood at the 4-car mark last year with my bike I was at the end of the
platform), but I'm sure Littleport and Watlington can't.

To get an 8 car train between Ely and Cambridge they have to be sure the
line is clear so it won't be checked en route. The power is fed from
Milton, just North of Chesterton Junction at the Northern end of
Cambridge and isn't sufficient to restart a 8 car train in section,
apparently.

Watlington is a recent halt which only has short platforms as you say.
Downham Market, I'm sure because I've been there more than once, has
platforms long enough for the old loco-haled services. I would be
surprised if Littleport hadn't too.

Similarly, some stations can only take 6-carriage trains - for
example Welham Green.
- 12-carriage trains would have to use only Platforms 1 to 8 at
King's Cross, which at peak times are already full to capacity with
GNER trains, et cetera.
You can't have used King's Cross much at rush hours recently. Lots of
Cambridge and Peterborough trains leave from platforms 1-8.

Quite so, but if you suddenly extend all of these to 12 cars they can't
use platforms 9-11 (or can't use a platform already occupied by one
unit). This is fine until an incident causes the platforming to go out
of sequence: currently WAGN only runs one 12-carriage service;
similarly the Eurostars can only use platforms 1 or 6 - okay for a
handful of services, but start making more of them and you have
problems.

There is nothing like enough stock for all trains to be 12 car though
there are some 12 car Peterboroughs now. When Thameslink 2000 gets done,
who knows what will happen?

The class 365 units seem to be a right bugger to couple up. The
Royston coupling is now performed at Cambridge AIUI, to make
assistance more available if there are problems. I can see why
Southern insisted on changing all their Electrostar couplers.

Yep, though they did of course used to join and split on the
Ramsgate/Dover runs, seemingly with little hassle. I've seen 317s have
trouble, but 365s do seem to suffer from the problem very badly.

We can heartily agree there. All the more puzzling given the much
increased miles per casualty being achieved for the class 365s by Hornsey
compared to their record at SET.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
The power is fed from Milton, just North of Chesterton Junction at the
Northern end of Cambridge and isn't sufficient to restart a 8 car
train in section, apparently.
This is a backward step then. Forty years ago, a train had to be able
to stop and restart on any part of it's run without any assistance, and
the locomotives load would be adjusted accordingly, this was the start
of the TOPS system and a start at getting rid of banking engines.
--
Clive

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
To get an 8 car train between Ely and Cambridge they have to be sure the
line is clear so it won't be checked en route. The power is fed from
Milton, just North of Chesterton Junction at the Northern end of
Cambridge and isn't sufficient to restart a 8 car train in section,
apparently.

Interesting, thanks. As far as I know, the section concerned runs from
Milton to Littleport (roughly 20 miles). The next feeder station to the
north is at Kings Lynn (20 miles from Littleport). For comparison, the
Midland as electrified had two FSs - at Grahame Park and Sundon, responsible
for an intense EMU service all the way from Bedford to St Pancras, which is
roughly 50 miles. However I've no idea what other factors exist on the
Kings Lynn line - though the next FS to the south of Milton is at Ugley
(between Elsenham and Newport). I wonder if there would be a problem if
either Milton or Kings Lynn were out of use, as Ugley to Kings Lynn *would*
be a long section.

(uk.railway added).



Watlington is a recent halt which only has short platforms as you say.
Downham Market, I'm sure because I've been there more than once, has
platforms long enough for the old loco-haled services. I would be
surprised if Littleport hadn't too.

As chance has it, I have some photos I took at some of these stations.
Littleport and Watlington are definitely both 4; Downham has two sets of DOO
monitors, which suggests it can hold 8, but it's not totally clear. So,
perhaps there's scope for a Cambridge - Ely - Downham - KL service; most if
not all service currently do seem to stop at all stations, which takes us to
power supply again... Judging by overcrowding I've seen on some peak-hour
KL trains, there's definitely a demand for longer trains north of Cambridge.


There is nothing like enough stock for all trains to be 12 car though
there are some 12 car Peterboroughs now. When Thameslink 2000 gets done,
who knows what will happen?

I'm pretty sure 12-car platforms are part of the project. Extending some are
going to hard, though - Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City (might
already be able to hold more than 8?) to name but a few that would seem
awkward.


We can heartily agree there. All the more puzzling given the much
increased miles per casualty being achieved for the class 365s by Hornsey
compared to their record at SET.

Possibly drivers unfamiliar with the coupling process, though this would
prob be an issue with SET too.

In article ,
(Clive) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
The power is fed from Milton, just North of Chesterton Junction at the
Northern end of Cambridge and isn't sufficient to restart a 8 car
train in section, apparently.
This is a backward step then. Forty years ago, a train had to be able
to stop and restart on any part of it's run without any assistance, and
the locomotives load would be adjusted accordingly, this was the start
of the TOPS system and a start at getting rid of banking engines.

That was before electrifications on the cheap then? This is the second
round here. The electrification from Royston to Cambridge didn't at one
time support locomotives or more than a four car EMU on that section.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

David Splett wrote:
similarly the Eurostars
can only use platforms 1 or 6 - okay for a handful of services, but start
making more of them and you have problems.

It doesn't seem OK at the moment. Last Friday the 1703 E* was delayed
due to platform issues during the evening peak. GNER sensibly decided
to cancel all seat reservations (and announce so).

In coach S, the table with seats (I think) 22, 23, 24 around it was
occupied by some people in their 50's. Someone (smartly dressed and in
his 40s) who had reserved it for him and his family decided to pick a
fight with the couple who were already there. It ended with both
blokes holding each others necks and squeezing whilst half the carriage
tried to stop them. Seat reservations - more trouble than they are
worth! (although it was rather amussing)

Chris

In article , (David
Splett) wrote:

Interesting, thanks. As far as I know, the section concerned runs from
Milton to Littleport (roughly 20 miles). The next feeder station to the
north is at Kings Lynn (20 miles from Littleport). For comparison, the
Midland as electrified had two FSs - at Grahame Park and Sundon,
responsible for an intense EMU service all the way from Bedford to St
Pancras, which is roughly 50 miles. However I've no idea what other
factors exist on the Kings Lynn line - though the next FS to the south
of Milton is at Ugley (between Elsenham and Newport). I wonder if there
would be a problem if either Milton or Kings Lynn were out of use, as
Ugley to Kings Lynn *would* be a long section.

Er, what's that at Shepreth Branch Junction if not a feeder station?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
Er, what's that at Shepreth Branch Junction if not a feeder station?

A track sectioning cabin. I think Ugley feeds to Shepreth, and then north to
Litlington (between Ashwell and Royston), BICBW - there are a variety of
ways it could be done I guess. But I do know for sure it's not a feeder
station.

Others can doubtlessly provide a more thorough explanation, but a TSC
basically acts as the break between two feeder stations or as a place where
the OHLE can be conveniently broken in to sections. Others in the area can
be found at Great Chesterford, Litlington, West River (between Waterbeach
and Ely), Littleport (north of Littleport, with neutral section separating
Milton and Kings Lynn) and Denver (between Littleport and Downham). Only a
FS has an incoming feed from the National Grid - for example the FS at Kings
Lynn is right next to a major Grid substation.