"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to
get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding
Camden Town station would fund a decent service
on the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently
using the Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go to
Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North London
Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality interchanges.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

wrote in message
ups.com...
John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is
to get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding Camden
Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.

But surely there's only a limited number of routes
for which Camden Road would be a viable alternative?

Yes, but you don't have to remove all the people from Camden Town. A 25%
reduction at the weekend might make the station workable for 20 years or so,
and who knows how unfashonable Camden might be by then.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people
to switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be
spent on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on
the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently using the
Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go
to Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North
London Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality
interchanges.

Ah, i see. That does make quite a lot of sense. Sorry i ever doubted you!

Hang on, though: if the station was actually busy, where would the dealers
sell their smack? You have to think about the knock-on effects!

tom

--
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:59:32 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
th.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to
get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding
Camden Town station would fund a decent service
on the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently
using the Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go to
Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North London
Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality interchanges.

True to a certain degree, but I think you'd need to do some serious
market research to find out how many people would potentially switch,
and whether it would be worthwhile. Given the zoning issues, I would
expect that a lot of people are already doing soi to avoid Zone 1.
For example, I'm nearest to Bounds Green, and flatmate who works in
Camden always uses the NLL already, so she doesn't have to pay for a
Z1 TC. Likewise, even though I have a Z1-3 TC for work, I'll often
use the NLL to get to Kew Gardens when I'm at the National Archives,
rather than the more crowded Picc/District.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:43:59 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Alan (in Brussels) wrote:
Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed
the decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Good to see society's intellectually challenged are being given good homes
in the London Assembly. Does he think LU are just going to give up on
Camden? Surely all they have to do is tone the plans down so they don't
completely destroy the town centre, and they'll be accepted.

But the plans can't be "toned down" too much or else you'll build
something that is not big enough and which will not comply with today's
safety and capacity requirements. While not fully familiar with the
desired level of capacity for the site the only other options are to dig
a new station that is largely underground thus reducing the surface
property issues. The issue with that is that it will (probably) cost so
much that there is no business case for proceeding. I think it is that
paradox that Mr Coleman might be referring to.

How about rebuilding the station above ground, demolishing what's there,
but replacing it with new buildings with the same or similar use? Markets,
venues, public spaces, not shops and flats or whatever. I think that would
address most of the objection.

Or is it that LU can only afford to rebuild if they can recoup some of the
costs through making money off property?

Buildings of a similar size would presumably have similar congestion
problems. Sorting out the congestion involves spreading out some of
the entrances and other facilities - therefore more total space needed.
And the cost is so high that the only way it is affordable is through
property development above and around the station site.

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

What is really needed on the Northern Line is a division in to 2
separate lines: one from Edgware to Kennington via Charing Cross, the
other from High Barnet to Morden via Bank. That would put an end to the
endless signalling problems at Camden Town and Kennington, but
unfortunately a reconstructed Camden Town is vital to allow for the
large numbers of passengers changing there.


- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

asdf wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

Well somebody does have to pay up front, or nothing will ever be built
or improved. I doubt much of an improvement in NLL services can be
made without a major investment in trains and signalling systems
(without even considering station facilities). All this would have to
be paid up front, whether funded privately or publicly.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, umpston wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent
on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the
North London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town redevelopment
would be paid for by the property developer.

This is the problem though. When does property development stop. e.g we
could sell off Hyde park and pay for crossrail etc.