In article ,
(Clive) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
I can see you're not a parent. Back to re-education camp for you my
boy!
Two, boy 27 girl22.

To whose transporting while young you contributed what?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
Two, boy 27 girl22.

To whose transporting while young you contributed what?
As I like walking (Don't tell Doug) I carried them on my shoulders. If
you start when they're young and light you don't notice the gradual
build up of weight.
--
Clive

In article ,
(Clive) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
Two, boy 27 girl22.

To whose transporting while young you contributed what?
As I like walking (Don't tell Doug) I carried them on my shoulders.
If you start when they're young and light you don't notice the gradual
build up of weight.

You never used a buggy or similar vehicle?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:44:47 +0100,
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
At least you were only glared at. I've been bashed into,
had my feet run over and witnessed all out warfare being
buggy toting mothers.

Of course I'm sure you're just lovely, but trying to
maneouvre buggies and/or a small child on buses (whether
tha stroller is collapsed or not) would be a great deal
easier if some passengers weren't a load of inconsiderate
******s.

If your experience of buggies and mothers has made you
hostile, think about what their experience is. You're
just got to stand around like the nice gentleman you are;
they've got a buggy and child to shift.

I find that a great many people these days are very rude and
inconsiderate. I am not exactly unmissable but the amount of people who
just bash into me and will not move out of the way or make the normal
sort of adjustment to allow the normal flow on pavements, in corridors
or on buses work properly is amazing. I try very hard not to get in
people's way, I try to be unfailingly helpful and polite (don't always
succeed though) and move to allow people past. However none of this
seems to count for anything - everyone else seems to have their own
sense of being "numero uno" to the detriment of all others. All that is
doing is creating a society of selfish people. What is worse is that
people have no concept that their manners and actions are inappropriate
- you just get the "don't disrespect me" look from people and please
note I'm making no racial distinction here at all.

The attitude of most buggy toting mothers is unacceptable in my view
regardless of whatever legitimate pressures they be experiencing as a
result of bringing up and transporting their children. As others have
said the space on these buses is for wheelchair users not specifically
for buggies which are carried unfolded as a favour not a right. While I
am not a parent I have a fair amount of sympathy for those who have that
responsibility. However parents do not have priority over all others and
neither do single people. We are all supposed to get along together
aren't we?

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:44:41 +0100, Clive
wrote:

In message , Mrs Redboots
writes
While I find buggies on buses can be as annoying and intrusive as you
evidently do, could I point out that a great many mothers of young
children are obliged to work to make ends meet (and this has always
been the case - the "Protestant work ethic" of father earning the
family's living while mother stayed at home with the children was
always a middle-class dream, never a working-class reality), so need to
travel to work when you do. Perhaps *you* could change *your* working
hours, since you are not encumbered by a family?

Please do try not to be so appallingly, insensitively offensive.
I am sorry for offending you, but I still think mothers with pushchairs
should have then folded before even attempting to board a bus. You're
right that I don't understand everyone's circumstances, but I do
understand the room these things take up and that modern buses of the
kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access.

Quote from TFL website: 'Today, our buses are environmentally friendly
and easy to use.........Low-floor vehicles, retractable ramps and
designated spaces for wheelchairs and pushchairs means improved
accessibility for more people.


A little thought would confirm my position, and I am white and working class.
Just go back a few years and you'll remember that whilst we had rear
loading with a conductor, he would refuse access to someone with an
unfolded pushchair and would only wait for it to be folded if the bus
was a bit early.

But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much
more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they
don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more.

--
Peter Lawrence

In message , Peter Lawrence
writes
But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much
more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they
don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more.
Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a
bus they are already on?
--
Clive

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:44:41 +0100, Clive
wrote:

I am sorry for offending you, but I still think mothers with pushchairs
should have then folded before even attempting to board a bus. You're
right that I don't understand everyone's circumstances, but I do
understand the room these things take up and that modern buses of the
kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access.

No, they're not. They are provided with a low floor to aid access to
everyone, be they in a wheelchair, with a pram or with lots of
luggage, or often in mainland Europe with a bicycle. As it so
happens, a wheelchair has priority over the other items, because it
would generally be very difficult or impossible for its owner to fold
it and put it elsewhere.

The space exists. It may as well be used to assist those travelling.

Personally, I would not put tip-up seats in the space concerned, be it
on a bus or a train; not doing so avoids arguments, and the space can
be used for standing if the bus is really busy.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:33:23 +0100, Clive
wrote:

Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a
bus they are already on?

They certainly should be. If they are not (assuming they are able to
do so), they are then being inconsiderate. Merely boarding an empty
bus with an unfolded pram is not in itself an inconsiderate act. It
is using the available facilities appropriately.

(No, incidentally, I do not have young children).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:18:42 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

As others have
said the space on these buses is for wheelchair users not specifically
for buggies which are carried unfolded as a favour not a right.

As I've said elsewhere, as have others, it is multipurpose space. The
order of priority would, in my mind, typically be:-

1. wheelchair user
2. any passenger with an item that won't fit anywhere else on the bus
without causing an obstruction, e.g. pram, very large or heavy
suitcases etc
3. any other passenger

As I also said elsewhere, I'd remove the seats from the space as it
avoids arguments. Certainly on a decker, there are plenty of other
seats, and if the bus is so full that the last 2 are needed, more
standing space will come in useful at the next stop.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , Neil Williams
writes
kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access.

No, they're not.
Yes they are, do you think that councils would go to the trouble of
increasing curb heights at bus stops and bus companies providing special
(therefore more expensive) busses than needed if it weren't for the
legislation around access to invalids such as wheelchair users?
--
Clive