Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:39:30 on Mon, 11 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
If the bomb was dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor)
or a color that matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary
looking, he could have slipped it under a seat without attracting much
attention.

Except the trains don't have an "under the seat", in that sense. Some of
the seats have cushions which can be lifted up, but you couldn't do that
without attracting *lots* of attention (and many, perhaps not all) are
fixed in place with cable-ties as part of a years-old security
precaution.
--
Roland Perry

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train. That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool? Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time? Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.
[*]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...#Investigation

fatherivy wrote:
Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.

Boy Scout backpacking guidelines stipulate 25% to 30% of your weight
for heavy duty hikes. That means you have a guy in good physical shape
weighing 70 to 90 kg (about 150 to 200 lb). If you are planting two on
Circle Line, then you already have one out when the first train
arrives. Grab the second and drop that soon after. Now you are
travelling towards Piccadilly with no more than 30 lbs.... a relatively
small woman could handle that with no problem.

[*]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...#Investigation

fatherivy wrote:

Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.

Actually, it isn't that bad. He was only carrying 40 pounds when he got
on the first Circle Line train. He left 10 pounds there and only had to
carry the 30 pounds of explosive a few yards to the second Circle Line
Train. Then he only had to carry 20 pounds to the Picadilly Line
platform. Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to
Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the
upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

Ed

In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston
(Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper
deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).

If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston
(Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper
deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).

If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.
--
Roland Perry

The theory I heard was he picked that bus because it would arrive at
KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus
was detoured so it went off on a side street.

In message .com, at
08:47:17 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:
The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).

If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.

The theory I heard was he picked that bus because it would arrive at
KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus
was detoured so it went off on a side street.

So why plan on the last bomb going off an hour after the first? The area
would be cleared of people long before that. And why pick a bus that was
heading in exactly the opposite direction?
--
Roland Perry

In message m, Roland
Perry writes

So why plan on the last bomb going off an hour after the first? The
area would be cleared of people long before that. And why pick a bus
that was heading in exactly the opposite direction?

The No.30 bus was running from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick (not the
other way round, as initially reported).

It would therefore normally have gone directly from Euston to King's
Cross. However, the police were directing all eastbound traffic away
from King's Cross - hence the reason why the bus ended up at Tavistock
Square.

It has been suggested that the increasing agitation of the suspected
bomber (reported by several people) was because either he knew the
device was about to explode when he was nowhere near the target he
intended (i.e. the rescue operation at KX).

--
Paul Terry

In message .com, at
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos remarked:

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train.

The only one on that section of the line.

That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

That is certainly a possibility.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?

In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.

You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.

Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time?

If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes (you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.

This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might
mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)

Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!

If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos remarked:

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train.

The only one on that section of the line.

That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

That is certainly a possibility.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?

In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.

You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.

Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time?

If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes
(you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day. There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching. If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might

There is a timetable, but the more critical thing is the spacing out of
cars.

mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.


Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening, you will certainly catch a break before 9:00


Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!

That's why I was budgeting as much time as possible by having the first
two trains as close together in time as possible.


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.

That is true, and suggests they were flying off the escalator to get to
the train before it left. It also suggests some serious nerve to be
rushing for a train with a ticking time bomb. This suggests someone
with demolition experience (probably former military) and maybe even
combat experience.

--
Roland Perry